Reflections

[learnin]

REFLECTIONS
After a season of watching of watching Coach Tang and his team, I think it's time for reflection and some soul searching. Coach insists that this is all about improving ourselves in this game we call life. Therefore, this season's disappointment is a prime opportunity for growth.

1. It don't come easy: Show me a blue blood and I'll show you a program that cheats or stacks the deck in its favor. Bill Self's a good coach but this year proves that the deck has been stacked in his favor. Self's advantage took a hit by the looming investigation, NIL and transfer portal. We see how easy it is, even for a good coach, to struggle when things are even. I hope, after this year, K-State fandom begins to have a new appreciation for Bruce Weber and the huge challenge he faced coaching in Manhattan.
2. Crazy faith is crazy: The 700 Club mentality must cease. The prophecies must cease. I am dismayed that K-State media, and fans, have failed to point out the obvious. Faith, by itself, will never lead to success or championships. Faith, and in this sense, I mean confidence, joined with hard work, skill, and a good measure of luck, CAN lead to a championship. This silly, over the top rhetoric must stop for the good of all concerned. When one stops to think for a minute, they will admit that even Coach betrays the silliness of crazy faith. He pandered to the students so that they would fill Bramlage; he works the refs about as much as Huggins; he asked the fans to pack Bramlage and be so obnoxious that Baylor would never want to come back; he visited Coach Prime in order to see how he could market the brand and he proclaimed, in front of his current players, "we need dudes!" Obviously, Coach knows there are a good number of things that one must do in order to be successful thereby denying crazy faith.
3. Coach is off the hook: In his second year, Weber lost one of the best point guards in the nation. A good point guard is critical to success. Weber caught hell for not being able to keep Angel in Manhattan when it was obvious that he left to get paid. In his third year, Weber's talented sophomore decided to smoke and party after he achieved fame. Once again, Weber was at fault. He was criticized for mishandling Marcus Foster. This year, Tang loses a player for disciplinary reasons. The player was disciplined over the summer and then found himself in trouble with the law a few months later. He is dismissed from the program. Was it Tang's fault? No. The K-State media, and fans, crucified the university president. Coach Tang was guiding the troubled student athlete in the best possible way, we were told, but the university president interfered and stopped what would have been another miracle. One coach gets the blame for turnover while the other is pitied.
4. A tale of two coaches: In his first year, Bruce Weber won the first conference championship in 3 decades. He lost in the first round of the tournament and the backlash was fierce. The conference championship gave him very little, if any, surplus good will. In his second year, he makes the tournament once again after many fans predicted a disaster after Angel left. In the tournament, Weber draws Kentucky because it took Kentucky 2/3 of the year to find its mojo. Weber loses by six points to the National Championship runner-up. Again, Weber is excoriated by the K-State media and many fans. In his first year, Jerome Tang goes to the elite 8. This, evidently, provided him with a surplus of good will. In his second year, Tang failed to make the tournament. No criticism. The criticism is directed at the university president and the FORCE for taking Glover with an injury. One coach produced a conference championship and two NCAA appearances during his first two years and is roasted by K-State media and many fans. The second coach produces an elite 8 and one tournament bid in two years. Social media is pleading for understanding and support.
5. The force is real: The randomness of intangibles........the things we cannot control. All through the Weber years I was ridiculed for mentioning that the force was unkind...very unkind to Coach Weber. For the most part, fans were having none of it. Bruce needed to recruit better; he needed a better strength coach; he needed to do a better job of retaining players. Weber coached one year with the transfer portal in effect, and it came within a hair of saving his job. The transfer portal has negatives because you might lose good players. On the other hand, the transfer portal provides coaches with a prime opportunity to keep from having to build a team from scratch whenever seniors graduate, players get injured or transfer. If coach Tang had to coach the old-fashioned way of recruiting freshmen, you have to admit that his first two seasons would have been bad unless, of course, Nijel would have remained. So, let's consider the force and see if we now have more believers. The transfer portal brought Marquis Nowell to Manhattan, but Covid struck and wiped out half the team, and coaching staff, for the first 4 conference games of the season. Intangibles. Bradford gets Covid pneumonia. Let's continue. Angel leaves for money. Foster decides to party. DJ Johnson nurses a foot injury his last two years. Dean nurses a foot injury throughout most of his K-State career and doesn't even get to play in last two tournaments. Kam Stokes goes down with knee injury and is hampered by it rest of career. Multiple bigs reporting with foot injuries.

p.s. By now, you're probably asking, "Why is learnin beating this dead horse again? Weber is in the past and we've moved on." My answer is simple. As I read through K-State social media, one thing has stood way out. Jerome Tang lost two of his starting five and this is why he did not make the tournament. That's fine. I agree. The force stinks at times. But, if it wasn't a valid excuse back when, it's not a valid excuse today.

[xtrawildcat]

REFLECTIONS
After a season of watching of watching Coach Tang and his team, I think it's time for reflection and some soul searching. Coach insists that this is all about improving ourselves in this game we call life. Therefore, this season's disappointment is a prime opportunity for growth.

1. It don't come easy: Show me a blue blood and I'll show you a program that cheats or stacks the deck in its favor. Bill Self's a good coach but this year proves that the deck has been stacked in his favor. Self's advantage took a hit by the looming investigation, NIL and transfer portal. We see how easy it is, even for a good coach, to struggle when things are even. I hope, after this year, K-State fandom begins to have a new appreciation for Bruce Weber and the huge challenge he faced coaching in Manhattan.
2. Crazy faith is crazy: The 700 Club mentality must cease. The prophecies must cease. I am dismayed that K-State media, and fans, have failed to point out the obvious. Faith, by itself, will never lead to success or championships. Faith, and in this sense, I mean confidence, joined with hard work, skill, and a good measure of luck, CAN lead to a championship. This silly, over the top rhetoric must stop for the good of all concerned. When one stops to think for a minute, they will admit that even Coach betrays the silliness of crazy faith. He pandered to the students so that they would fill Bramlage; he works the refs about as much as Huggins; he asked the fans to pack Bramlage and be so obnoxious that Baylor would never want to come back; he visited Coach Prime in order to see how he could market the brand and he proclaimed, in front of his current players, "we need dudes!" Obviously, Coach knows there are a good number of things that one must do in order to be successful thereby denying crazy faith.
3. Coach is off the hook: In his second year, Weber lost one of the best point guards in the nation. A good point guard is critical to success. Weber caught hell for not being able to keep Angel in Manhattan when it was obvious that he left to get paid. In his third year, Weber's talented sophomore decided to smoke and party after he achieved fame. Once again, Weber was at fault. He was criticized for mishandling Marcus Foster. This year, Tang loses a player for disciplinary reasons. The player was disciplined over the summer and then found himself in trouble with the law a few months later. He is dismissed from the program. Was it Tang's fault? No. The K-State media, and fans, crucified the university president. Coach Tang was guiding the troubled student athlete in the best possible way, we were told, but the university president interfered and stopped what would have been another miracle. One coach gets the blame for turnover while the other is pitied.
4. A tale of two coaches: In his first year, Bruce Weber won the first conference championship in 3 decades. He lost in the first round of the tournament and the backlash was fierce. The conference championship gave him very little, if any, surplus good will. In his second year, he makes the tournament once again after many fans predicted a disaster after Angel left. In the tournament, Weber draws Kentucky because it took Kentucky 2/3 of the year to find its mojo. Weber loses by six points to the National Championship runner-up. Again, Weber is excoriated by the K-State media and many fans. In his first year, Jerome Tang goes to the elite 8. This, evidently, provided him with a surplus of good will. In his second year, Tang failed to make the tournament. No criticism. The criticism is directed at the university president and the FORCE for taking Glover with an injury. One coach produced a conference championship and two NCAA appearances during his first two years and is roasted by K-State media and many fans. The second coach produces an elite 8 and one tournament bid in two years. Social media is pleading for understanding and support.
5. The force is real: The randomness of intangibles........the things we cannot control. All through the Weber years I was ridiculed for mentioning that the force was unkind...very unkind to Coach Weber. For the most part, fans were having none of it. Bruce needed to recruit better; he needed a better strength coach; he needed to do a better job of retaining players. Weber coached one year with the transfer portal in effect, and it came within a hair of saving his job. The transfer portal has negatives because you might lose good players. On the other hand, the transfer portal provides coaches with a prime opportunity to keep from having to build a team from scratch whenever seniors graduate, players get injured or transfer. If coach Tang had to coach the old-fashioned way of recruiting freshmen, you have to admit that his first two seasons would have been bad unless, of course, Nijel would have remained. So, let's consider the force and see if we now have more believers. The transfer portal brought Marquis Nowell to Manhattan, but Covid struck and wiped out half the team, and coaching staff, for the first 4 conference games of the season. Intangibles. Bradford gets Covid pneumonia. Let's continue. Angel leaves for money. Foster decides to party. DJ Johnson nurses a foot injury his last two years. Dean nurses a foot injury throughout most of his K-State career and doesn't even get to play in last two tournaments. Kam Stokes goes down with knee injury and is hampered by it rest of career. Multiple bigs reporting with foot injuries.

p.s. By now, you're probably asking, "Why is learnin beating this dead horse again? Weber is in the past and we've moved on." My answer is simple. As I read through K-State social media, one thing has stood way out. Jerome Tang lost two of his starting five and this is why he did not make the tournament. That's fine. I agree. The force stinks at times. But, if it wasn't a valid excuse back when, it's not a valid excuse today.

Fans are disappointed with this season. And Tang is being criticized by fans for not addressing the tov issue and for signing Glover because he had a meniscus injury last year. Fans are rightfully looking at next years roster and will be judging Tang before the season by how he fills it. And they will be evaluating how Tang coaches that roster and judging him on wins and losses.

You brought up Weber when everybody else long ago moved on. SoYou will have to remind me when Weber lost two starter calibre players for the entire season with the season already being underway.

Kam Stokes did not have a knee injury he did not recover from. He injured it his freshman year halfway through the Big 12 season and was recovered for his sophomore year. Started 35 games that year and averaged 33 minutes that year. He missed about 10 games his junior year with a foot injury. We went to the elite 8 that year.

Weber and more importantly, his players rightfully received a lot of "if only" commentary over the foot injuries to Dean Wade and DJ.

Finally, a reminder so you can move on with the rest of us. Weber finished his last three years with losing records so he was replaced. Tang will receive the same treatment if he has three losing seasons in a row.

.

[spot2180]

REFLECTIONS
After a season of watching of watching Coach Tang and his team, I think it's time for reflection and some soul searching. Coach insists that this is all about improving ourselves in this game we call life. Therefore, this season's disappointment is a prime opportunity for growth.

1. It don't come easy: Show me a blue blood and I'll show you a program that cheats or stacks the deck in its favor. Bill Self's a good coach but this year proves that the deck has been stacked in his favor. Self's advantage took a hit by the looming investigation, NIL and transfer portal. We see how easy it is, even for a good coach, to struggle when things are even. I hope, after this year, K-State fandom begins to have a new appreciation for Bruce Weber and the huge challenge he faced coaching in Manhattan.
2. Crazy faith is crazy: The 700 Club mentality must cease. The prophecies must cease. I am dismayed that K-State media, and fans, have failed to point out the obvious. Faith, by itself, will never lead to success or championships. Faith, and in this sense, I mean confidence, joined with hard work, skill, and a good measure of luck, CAN lead to a championship. This silly, over the top rhetoric must stop for the good of all concerned. When one stops to think for a minute, they will admit that even Coach betrays the silliness of crazy faith. He pandered to the students so that they would fill Bramlage; he works the refs about as much as Huggins; he asked the fans to pack Bramlage and be so obnoxious that Baylor would never want to come back; he visited Coach Prime in order to see how he could market the brand and he proclaimed, in front of his current players, "we need dudes!" Obviously, Coach knows there are a good number of things that one must do in order to be successful thereby denying crazy faith.
3. Coach is off the hook: In his second year, Weber lost one of the best point guards in the nation. A good point guard is critical to success. Weber caught hell for not being able to keep Angel in Manhattan when it was obvious that he left to get paid. In his third year, Weber's talented sophomore decided to smoke and party after he achieved fame. Once again, Weber was at fault. He was criticized for mishandling Marcus Foster. This year, Tang loses a player for disciplinary reasons. The player was disciplined over the summer and then found himself in trouble with the law a few months later. He is dismissed from the program. Was it Tang's fault? No. The K-State media, and fans, crucified the university president. Coach Tang was guiding the troubled student athlete in the best possible way, we were told, but the university president interfered and stopped what would have been another miracle. One coach gets the blame for turnover while the other is pitied.
4. A tale of two coaches: In his first year, Bruce Weber won the first conference championship in 3 decades. He lost in the first round of the tournament and the backlash was fierce. The conference championship gave him very little, if any, surplus good will. In his second year, he makes the tournament once again after many fans predicted a disaster after Angel left. In the tournament, Weber draws Kentucky because it took Kentucky 2/3 of the year to find its mojo. Weber loses by six points to the National Championship runner-up. Again, Weber is excoriated by the K-State media and many fans. In his first year, Jerome Tang goes to the elite 8. This, evidently, provided him with a surplus of good will. In his second year, Tang failed to make the tournament. No criticism. The criticism is directed at the university president and the FORCE for taking Glover with an injury. One coach produced a conference championship and two NCAA appearances during his first two years and is roasted by K-State media and many fans. The second coach produces an elite 8 and one tournament bid in two years. Social media is pleading for understanding and support.
5. The force is real: The randomness of intangibles........the things we cannot control. All through the Weber years I was ridiculed for mentioning that the force was unkind...very unkind to Coach Weber. For the most part, fans were having none of it. Bruce needed to recruit better; he needed a better strength coach; he needed to do a better job of retaining players. Weber coached one year with the transfer portal in effect, and it came within a hair of saving his job. The transfer portal has negatives because you might lose good players. On the other hand, the transfer portal provides coaches with a prime opportunity to keep from having to build a team from scratch whenever seniors graduate, players get injured or transfer. If coach Tang had to coach the old-fashioned way of recruiting freshmen, you have to admit that his first two seasons would have been bad unless, of course, Nijel would have remained. So, let's consider the force and see if we now have more believers. The transfer portal brought Marquis Nowell to Manhattan, but Covid struck and wiped out half the team, and coaching staff, for the first 4 conference games of the season. Intangibles. Bradford gets Covid pneumonia. Let's continue. Angel leaves for money. Foster decides to party. DJ Johnson nurses a foot injury his last two years. Dean nurses a foot injury throughout most of his K-State career and doesn't even get to play in last two tournaments. Kam Stokes goes down with knee injury and is hampered by it rest of career. Multiple bigs reporting with foot injuries.

p.s. By now, you're probably asking, "Why is learnin beating this dead horse again? Weber is in the past and we've moved on." My answer is simple. As I read through K-State social media, one thing has stood way out. Jerome Tang lost two of his starting five and this is why he did not make the tournament. That's fine. I agree. The force stinks at times. But, if it wasn't a valid excuse back when, it's not a valid excuse today.

Two different coaches. Two different styles. If Tang's religiosity is your biggest problem with him, it is possible you are exclusively using that lens to be overly critical. I will echo the point made in a previous post: After losing two starting players for the season before the first game, I think Tang did a pretty good job.

[pulitzerdavid]

I'm really tired of the excuses for this team. K-State didn't "lose" two starters. Glover was never going to be a starter and the other guy eliminated himself because he decided that he was going to be a thug. But I can understand the sympathy tied to this player. After all, he was the leading returning scorer and was the one who was going to take this team to the Final Four. Fans are always willing to overlook the sins of such a player, because it's in THEIR best interest to do so. Frankly, I don't want thugs playing for my school. He doesn't deserve to play for my school. That's just my opinion. It's not a popular one on this forum, but I have higher standards for athletes that put on a KSU uniform like I did once. I saw a teammate kicked off the team for drinking a beer. He was a 5-star athlete given today's standards. That may seem a little extreme, but there were other things that led to that, and he then broke a team rule. So he was shown the door ... without discussion. The team accepted it, and got better.

And here's the big unknown. Crowing about two players who didn't play is not going to erase any of those bad losses that this team had. And it's not going to produce any imaginary wins either. Other teams also deal with personnel issues.

Excuses are for losers.

[katlander]

I think you make good points learnin. Some fans were mad about Frank Martin getting fired and/or didn't want us to hire Bruce Weber.

Consequently Weber could do no right. Weber felt it and was pissed when he was let go. He worked hard but struggled to recruit in general and really struggled finding quality bigs and keeping them healthy and playing well.

It was a head scratcher but sometimes it felt like he was cursed. Through it all he kept his head up and maintained his integrity. When things did fall into place he won championships.. Good guy and very good defensive coach.

Some posters here were very unfair. Are any of those guys still on the board?

[Wyldkatz]

Thank GOD Learnin and Dave are back to help us see their truth! Lol. I quit reading the novel 2 sentences in. You can PREACh all you want, but I FAIThFully believe Tang is a better basketball coach than Weber.

[pulitzerdavid]

Thank GOD Learnin and Dave are back to help us see their truth! Lol. I quit reading the novel 2 sentences in. You can PREACh all you want, but I FAIThFully believe Tang is a better basketball coach than Weber.

Based on what?

[powercat95]

I agree to some extent with some of the OP's points. I liked Bruce Weber and was strongly rooting for him to succeed and continue as our coach.
He had to deal with a lot of adversity, such competing with KU even though they were cheating like crazy.
He was plagued by injuries (boots galore, although I still think there was some correctible reason behind this, no one could be that unlucky).
He had players like Love and Shadd here, seemingly forever, taking scholarship spots and contributing nothing.

However, lest we forget, KSU was EXTREMELY patient with Bruce Weber, as they should have been given his accomplishments like conference championships. He had multiple roster teardowns and rebuilds. Toward the end he was given a goal of getting to the NCAA tournament, a low bar, but didn't get it done.
It was time for KSU and its fans to move on.

And how many millions did KSU pay Bruce Weber over the years? Much more than most (or all) of us will make in our lifetimes.

So I don't feel sorry for Bruce Weber. This is a big boy business, he was given many chances to achieve modest goals but did not, so he was asked to leave. I have no problem with any of that.

If Tang is not making the tournament on a regular basis or is failing to achieve other goals given to him by the AD, then he will be held accountable as well.

[pulitzerdavid]

I think you make good points learnin. Some fans were mad about Frank Martin getting fired and/or didn't want us to hire Bruce Weber.

Consequently Weber could do no right. Weber felt it and was pissed when he was let go. He worked hard but struggled to recruit in general and really struggled finding quality bigs and keeping them healthy and playing well.

It was a head scratcher but sometimes it felt like he was cursed. Through it all he kept his head up and maintained his integrity. When things did fall into place he won championships.. Good guy and very good defensive coach.

Some posters here were very unfair. Are any of those guys still on the board?

Are you kidding, they are all over this board!

[epicsnyder]

Squeaky/squealing Bruce is gone.
Rabid F-bomb and GD ladened Marting is Long gone.


Tang is the best coach we have had in a very long time. Get over the past. Moving on to a bright future. #EMAW!!!