systemic racism: what's the fix?

Politics and religion: two polarizing topics that deserve their own little place
spot2180
Posts: 7162
Joined: November 12th, 2017, 10:32 am
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 67 times

Re: systemic racism: what's the fix?

Post by spot2180 » September 16th, 2020, 8:58 am

Opensource wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 5:08 pm
spot2180 wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 2:12 pm


And here are the politics. And because of your politics, you have determined I know nothing. While I can argue logically, you depend on emotion and the longer you go, the louder you get.

You have leverage to lose, so your answer is totally expected and devoid of reason and wit.
No emotion. You have bothered to look up what social justice means. Your use of the term is wrong. So, I logically conclude you know nothing.
Social Justice seems to be a malleable term, molded to fit a variety of situations that some in our society see fit to exploit.

So logically, its application is anything but logical, showing that you lack the wit to tackle the situation.
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." ~ Aldous Huxley
"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it." - Thomas Sowell

82catfan
Posts: 70
Joined: October 23rd, 2013, 1:40 pm
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Post by 82catfan » September 16th, 2020, 9:03 am

MajorAppleCat wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 8:27 pm
82catfan wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 6:23 pm

Some examples of systemic racism include:
Offering business loans or mortgage loans to certain minorities at higher rates based soley on skin color or culture, or refusing to offer loans at all based on race, [A myth. See Community Reinvestment Act, regulated by the FDIC..] The CRA does not prohibit predatory loans for mortgages, nor does it regulate student loans or car loans or credit card rates.

Arresting or ticketing or killing people by law enforcement at higher rates based on racism. [Inaccurate. Blacks engage in a higher proportion of aggravated crimes.]
Even if you found a statistic that showed this, would it be artificially inflated because minorities are more likely to be arrested and charged with aggravated crimes than whites based soley on race?

Providing inferior public services such as drinking water based on race. (Flint, Michigan) [Inaccurate: Not based on race.]
Permitting inferior low income housing that poisons the tenants for generations, (lead poisoning in Baltimore) and then blaming the tenants for not being able to rise out of their circumstances. [Cities controlled by democrats.]
The declines of Flint and Baltimore are not due to the party that currently runs their city government, but the exodus of GM in Flint (80,000 jobs) and Bethlehem Steel in Baltimore (35,000 Jobs)

Social justice means righting wrongs, not just making things even. Social justice is not picking winners and losers. We already know who the losers are.


If you need links for this lack of "systemic racism" it has been provided in other threads, but I can provide as well.

QUESTION: If you are truly concerned about loans to minorities, then why would anyone support Biden who has been on the side of the predatory practices of the credit card companies for decades. Credit cards are the primary source of funds of low income and lower middle class borrowers. and what have the republicans done to address this ?

Link: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... president/

KITNooga
Posts: 7431
Joined: September 19th, 2017, 8:22 am
Has thanked: 111 times
Been thanked: 72 times

Post by KITNooga » September 16th, 2020, 9:10 am

spot2180 wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 8:58 am
Social Justice seems to be a malleable term, molded to fit a variety of situations that some in our society see fit to exploit.
I think this is the crux of the issue. there's no hard/fast definition. so the term 'can be almost anything'.

and that, my friends, makes it almost impossible to figure out a path forward to solution. and guarantees long term 'political football' status.

a tool for whichever party, group wants to make use of it.

spot2180
Posts: 7162
Joined: November 12th, 2017, 10:32 am
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 67 times

Post by spot2180 » September 16th, 2020, 10:52 am

82catfan wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 6:23 pm
spot2180 wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 12:33 pm
I think before you determined what to do, you'd first need to examine whether it exists or not. Before some of you start to hyperventilate, we'd have to throw out any and all political bent to the discussion because it would only 'fix' part of the problem. It would fix what one party sees as the problem and not the whole problem.

What are the examples of 'systemic racism'?

Does each example warrant the being labeled as such?

What does the data tell us?

What causes the 'systemic racism'?

Then you start to fix it.

Social justice doesn't 'fix' anything. It picks a winner and a loser. Who decides the winners and the losers? Do the 'losers' really deserve to 'lose'?

I don't think we'd ever get past the politics.
Some examples of systemic racism include:
Offering business loans or mortgage loans to certain minorities at higher rates based soley on skin color or culture, or refusing to offer loans at all based on race,

Arresting or ticketing or killing people by law enforcement at higher rates based on racism.
Providing inferior public services such as drinking water based on race. (Flint, Michigan)
Permitting inferior low income housing that poisons the tenants for generations, (lead poisoning in Baltimore) and then blaming the tenants for not being able to rise out of their circumstances.

Social justice means righting wrongs, not just making things even. Social justice is not picking winners and losers. We already know who the losers are.
Offering business loans or mortgage loans to certain minorities at higher rates based soley on skin color or culture, or refusing to offer loans at all based on race,
I get that. Some loan officers can be racist. And if it is proven, then there should be some punishment for it, But you can't call a bank or a loan officer racist if the person asking for a loan doesn't have good credit, collateral or can't repay the loan. That isn't racist. And it definitely isn't "systemic" racism. If the person asking for the loan is a risk, that isn't racism. You make it sound like ALL white people get loans. I've been turned down twice for loans in my lifetime.
Arresting or ticketing or killing people by law enforcement at higher rates based on racism.
Funny isn't it, that you can't judge ALL muslims on one suicide bomber, but you can blame ALL cops for the one cop arresting or ticketing or killing people. Compliance is probably the issue more than racism is when it comes to cops. Are some cops dicks? Yes, no argument there. But even though they may be a dick, it doesn't mean they are racist and are targeting people of color. Fact: more white people are killed by cops than any other group. Yes, black people are a much smaller part of the population, so the percentage is higher. What you guys hardly ever say though is that even though they are a smaller population group, that smaller population group commits the majority of the crimes. And when it is a serious situation, and compliance is an issue--remember, had George Floyd complied, we wouldn't know his name--people get hurt. The dude that was shot and paralyzed, had he complied, he'd be walking today. Both Floyd and that guy were doing something outside the law when they were approached by cops. In Ferguson, the cop was doing his job, and the guy that got shot decided he was going to fight with the cop instead of getting out of the road. Personal responsibility is key. If a person, no matter the color, decides to be irresponsible and break the law, then there will be consequences. Police demanding compliance is not systemic racism.

Providing inferior public services such as drinking water based on race. (Flint, Michigan)


Sorry, not everyone in Flint is black. Sorry again, but that water fiasco is more complicated than just a racial problem. Not 'systemic' racism.

Permitting inferior low income housing that poisons the tenants for generations, (lead poisoning in Baltimore) and then blaming the tenants for not being able to rise out of their circumstances.


Land lords are supposed to follow ordinances, and if those ordinances are not enforced, that is on the municipality. And guessing where you think this is happening, large inner cities, most of those fall on democrat politicians who allow it. It could be 'systemic' racism, but we are led to believe here on this board that only people of a certain skin color and certain party are guilty of it.

What you are calling for is just justice. Social justice is not real justice, but justice from a point of view.
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." ~ Aldous Huxley
"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it." - Thomas Sowell

ChemicalKat
Posts: 5492
Joined: September 11th, 2017, 9:18 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 51 times

Post by ChemicalKat » September 16th, 2020, 10:54 am

KITNooga wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 9:10 am
spot2180 wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 8:58 am
Social Justice seems to be a malleable term, molded to fit a variety of situations that some in our society see fit to exploit.
I think this is the crux of the issue. there's no hard/fast definition. so the term 'can be almost anything'.

and that, my friends, makes it almost impossible to figure out a path forward to solution. and guarantees long term 'political football' status.

a tool for whichever party, group wants to make use of it.
For a second, I thought you were going to take this subject seriously. I should have known better.

spot2180
Posts: 7162
Joined: November 12th, 2017, 10:32 am
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 67 times

Post by spot2180 » September 16th, 2020, 10:57 am

Opensource wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 7:26 am
SCKSCat wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 6:52 am
First, old people should not being leading the discussion
Second, people who make their living from fomenting this issue should not be allowed in the house let alone at the table.
BLM activists noooooo
Federal politicians, nope
Local people from the frontline, yes.
Yea, but the local people are for the most part black and the racists can’t let them solve their issues.
But Joe Biden can. After 47 years, he finally knows what to do, because he said black folks lack diversity of thought. His teleprompter told him that.

You don't really want to solve 'systemic' racism, Opensource, if you are gonna elect a guy who has immersed himself in it for 47 years.
Last edited by spot2180 on September 16th, 2020, 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." ~ Aldous Huxley
"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it." - Thomas Sowell

spot2180
Posts: 7162
Joined: November 12th, 2017, 10:32 am
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 67 times

Post by spot2180 » September 16th, 2020, 11:04 am

ChemicalKat wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 10:54 am
KITNooga wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 9:10 am


I think this is the crux of the issue. there's no hard/fast definition. so the term 'can be almost anything'.

and that, my friends, makes it almost impossible to figure out a path forward to solution. and guarantees long term 'political football' status.

a tool for whichever party, group wants to make use of it.
For a second, I thought you were going to take this subject seriously. I should have known better.
So define the term, chemmy. If you really wanted a serious discussion, you should offer a definition. If we are going to solve it, then we have to agree on what it is.
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." ~ Aldous Huxley
"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it." - Thomas Sowell

User avatar
MajorAppleCat
Posts: 2672
Joined: September 3rd, 2013, 6:09 am
Location: Kansas Territory
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Post by MajorAppleCat » September 16th, 2020, 11:39 am

82catfan wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 9:03 am
MajorAppleCat wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 8:27 pm


If you need links for this lack of "systemic racism" it has been provided in other threads, but I can provide as well.

QUESTION: If you are truly concerned about loans to minorities, then why would anyone support Biden who has been on the side of the predatory practices of the credit card companies for decades. Credit cards are the primary source of funds of low income and lower middle class borrowers. and what have the republicans done to address this ?

Link: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... president/
And again, you are going to entrust Biden with correcting these perceived problems... after he has been on the side of predatory credit card companies who prey on the weakest of Americans for decades?
"Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." Alexis de Tocqueville

ChemicalKat
Posts: 5492
Joined: September 11th, 2017, 9:18 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 51 times

Post by ChemicalKat » September 16th, 2020, 11:58 am

spot2180 wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 11:04 am
ChemicalKat wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 10:54 am


For a second, I thought you were going to take this subject seriously. I should have known better.
So define the term, chemmy. If you really wanted a serious discussion, you should offer a definition. If we are going to solve it, then we have to agree on what it is.
You already said it doesn't exist so I'm not going to bother.

spot2180
Posts: 7162
Joined: November 12th, 2017, 10:32 am
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 67 times

Post by spot2180 » September 16th, 2020, 12:29 pm

ChemicalKat wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 11:58 am
spot2180 wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 11:04 am


So define the term, chemmy. If you really wanted a serious discussion, you should offer a definition. If we are going to solve it, then we have to agree on what it is.
You already said it doesn't exist so I'm not going to bother.
I am gathering that you don't want a serious discussion unless it goes your way. Is that the way science works for you too?

All you are doing by not engaging is allowing me to think otherwise. where is the compelling evidence to prove your case? Why should I change my mind if you don't do your best to change it?

Or is it that there's too much leverage for you to lose?

If there is systemic racism, like you say, do the democrats that run those cities where you believe it happens bear any responsibility for it? Especially since they've been in charge for 40-50 years.
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." ~ Aldous Huxley
"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it." - Thomas Sowell

Post Reply