Fallout on amateurism

Discussion related to the K-State men's basketball team
Hypeman
Posts: 1759
Joined: December 16th, 2018, 11:33 pm

Fallout on amateurism

Post by Hypeman » May 26th, 2020, 8:39 am

Good article from Ames. Since KSU is considering ending fall early, this seems to apply.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.amestr ... ate=ampart

So, how can we get by without paying these guys big money? I mentioned this on the football board a while back, the football players are just meat. Gladiators for entertainment. A degree is part of the pay, I guess, but with the exception of a few walk-one, most of the players get worthless pud degrees. They are here to play ball and universities don’t care about them otherwise.

Lawyers are salivating! I wish I was a lawyer because I’d be signing players up for my class action right and left!

I contend that these sports programs will be the end of universities as we know them, a handful of coaches and ADs, and trial lawyers will become filthy rich in the end. Public education and the middle class will pay the price.

PurpleOnWhite
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Joined: September 8th, 2017, 10:36 am

Pick 'Em

Post by PurpleOnWhite » May 26th, 2020, 9:09 am

Many D1 football and basketball players would never set foot on a college campus without the athletic scholarship. Would they be better served going into the workforce (Or elsewhere) upon high school graduation or at least given an opportunity to obtain a degree? They have a free will to say no to the universities. And, at least to this guy who grew up with nothing and paid his way through college, the remuneration these D1 scholarship players are receiving is pretty nice compensation, NIL notwithstanding. Coaching salaries and facilities are another matter.

Hypeman
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Joined: December 16th, 2018, 11:33 pm

Post by Hypeman » May 26th, 2020, 10:29 am

PurpleOnWhite wrote:
May 26th, 2020, 9:09 am
Many D1 football and basketball players would never set foot on a college campus without the athletic scholarship. Would they be better served going into the workforce (Or elsewhere) upon high school graduation or at least given an opportunity to obtain a degree? They have a free will to say no to the universities. And, at least to this guy who grew up with nothing and paid his way through college, the remuneration these D1 scholarship players are receiving is pretty nice compensation, NIL notwithstanding. Coaching salaries and facilities are another matter.
Of course they want a scholarship ... the question is, how much more should they be getting paid? $10k? $100k? $500k? We have them here to put money in pockets. Considering coaches are making millions, should the players get their cut? In all other professional sports, the players get more than the coaches. I’d say Colin Klein “the player” was worth a million bucks a year. The stands were full and the program rose.

tmcats
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Joined: September 3rd, 2013, 1:09 pm

Pick 'Em

Post by tmcats » May 26th, 2020, 10:38 am

the article has several flaws as does the opening post. calling college athletes 'gladiators' is nonsense, as they were mostly criminals, slaves, or prisoners of war. and this sentence from the article is just plain ignorant or worse, as division one football players have stipends of $5000/year or more to say nothing for their other bennies.

Given these athletes aren’t compensated beyond their scholarships and have nothing resembling bargaining power that their professional counterparts have in unions, it’s a setup that would be nothing short of exploitative if they’re forced to play while other students stay away.

we have moved progressively toward cultural equity in america and particularly on campus. that's the underpinnings of this piece. that everyone should be treated fairly, however someone chooses to define that word. merit doesn't matter. it's now all about needs trumping accomplishment, being 'fair.'

and yes, trial lawyers are lucking like virus-laden bats in the night waiting for their next vulnerable prey. college administrators need be leery.


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"There ain't anybody stoppin' our ass!" CK

Hypeman
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Joined: December 16th, 2018, 11:33 pm

Post by Hypeman » May 26th, 2020, 12:31 pm

tmcats wrote:
May 26th, 2020, 10:38 am
the article has several flaws as does the opening post. calling college athletes 'gladiators' is nonsense, as they were mostly criminals, slaves, or prisoners of war. and this sentence from the article is just plain ignorant or worse, as division one football players have stipends of $5000/year or more to say nothing for their other bennies.

Given these athletes aren’t compensated beyond their scholarships and have nothing resembling bargaining power that their professional counterparts have in unions, it’s a setup that would be nothing short of exploitative if they’re forced to play while other students stay away.

we have moved progressively toward cultural equity in america and particularly on campus. that's the underpinnings of this piece. that everyone should be treated fairly, however someone chooses to define that word. merit doesn't matter. it's now all about needs trumping accomplishment, being 'fair.'

and yes, trial lawyers are lucking like virus-laden bats in the night waiting for their next vulnerable prey. college administrators need be leery.


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Wait a minute, who’s the progressive? Nobody is suggesting treating everyone the same ... you are. Everyone gets a $5k stipend and a scholarship? Last guy off the bench and the starting QB? Why can’t they earn their value?

Here’s why, some of your buddies are getting rich off these kids. Open the floodgates of pay-to-play and they can’t keep exploiting the players for their own profit. At least not to the tune of multi-millions a year.

If you object to calling them gladiators, can you agree these kids are treated like sweatshop workers?

tmcats
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Pick 'Em

Post by tmcats » May 26th, 2020, 1:14 pm

Wait a minute, who’s the progressive? Nobody is suggesting treating everyone the same ... you are. Everyone gets a $5k stipend and a scholarship? Last guy off the bench and the starting QB? Why can’t they earn their value? i pointed out that the article is factually incorrect by saying player compensation is limited to a scholarship.

Here’s why, some of your buddies are getting rich off these kids. Open the floodgates of pay-to-play and they can’t keep exploiting the players for their own profit. At least not to the tune of multi-millions a year.i'm not sure which buddies you're referencing but whatever the case my friends have nothing to do with the drift of this wronghead ames commentary.

If you object to calling them gladiators, can you agree these kids are treated like sweatshop workers?receiving scholarships worth tens of thousands, plus stipends, adulation, and other bennies is hardly akin to sweatshop workers. sweatshop workers in many parts of the world make the annual equivalent of what football players get each month in a stipend.

https://waronwant.org/sweatshops-bangladesh
"There ain't anybody stoppin' our ass!" CK

epicsnyder
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Post by epicsnyder » May 26th, 2020, 2:34 pm

These young men are ALREADY handsomely rewarded for their services in their stipends, top notch housing, food quality that most college students will never have access to, top level medical care that would cost thousands outside the setting they are privileged to be in, tutoring, clothing, travel to places most would never have seen, perks in restaurants and bars all over town, booster's cash nobody outside can trace, equipment access the average student can't have, strength and conditioning expertise daily, nutrition expertise daily, ......it goes on and on and on.

Question is: How many of these kids would be making the money it costs to give them their lavish lifestyle in and around campus? I have no idea what the above mentioned FACTS cost in aggregate, or what other things I missed in that list I generated off the top of my head. But I can assure you this, no uneducated 18-21 y.o. dude is making that kind of jack coming out of H.S. with no training or skill set to do anything else.

And if they CHOOSE to obtain an "easy" degree that qualifies them to do nothing upon receipt,....whose fault is that? It was F-R-E-E +. If they CHOSE to turn their back on the golden opportunity to be educated in a sought after field, that is on them and their feeling that they are going to get paid to ball after school. And we all know how well that works for most of them now don't we?!?!?

The discussion of the wealth around them is laughable. There is no equity in working relationships in most cases. I work my ass off for the company that has chosen to employ me. They make much more than I get in return, on the back of my labor. I get it. It's how it works. Expenses WAY above and beyond my salary and benefits are needed to keep the company afloat. SAME DAMN THING is happening here. Most athletic departments are not very profitable. If at all. And yes I agree 1,000 % that coaches salaries are beyond astronomical and that something needs to be done about it. Never will in the real world, however, as the market dictates those numbers. And the market has gone batshit crazy!

Hypeman
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Joined: December 16th, 2018, 11:33 pm

Post by Hypeman » May 27th, 2020, 6:41 am

Sometimes the market doesn’t dictate and the government (or quasi-government) dictates, like in Russia, or in China, or in college athletics. I didn’t know we had so many progressives pretending to be capitalists on this site.

I’m not arguing that scholarships or meals etc. aren’t potentially valuable, but, why not let “the market” dictate a players worth?

Hypeman
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Joined: December 16th, 2018, 11:33 pm

Post by Hypeman » May 27th, 2020, 7:27 am

tmcats wrote:
May 26th, 2020, 10:38 am

we have moved progressively toward cultural equity in america and particularly on campus. that's the underpinnings of this piece. that everyone should be treated fairly, however someone chooses to define that word. merit doesn't matter. it's now all about needs trumping accomplishment, being 'fair.'
TM, perhaps I’m wrong, but isn’t this what you are promoting by agreeing with a cap on athletes’ benefits? Why not let the market decide their worth, or at least let the schools decide how much they want to pay? Why do you claim to promote rewarding people based on merit but then you insist we do exactly the opposite as it pertains to these athletes?

The point I took from article is that requiring athletes to be in an environment deemed unsafe for other students would be further evidence they are here to line other people’s pockets and concern for them otherwise is limited. If I have to send my grad students who are getting tuition scholarships home because it would be unsafe, why doesn’t athletics send their “students” home too?

Maybe you think they are “essential” workers, like nurses, rather than “sweatshop” workers? But I’m not aware of a federal government cap on nursing pay?

Other people we treat like these athletes are criminals and gladiators. Gladiators also got fame and adulation. They also had the opportunity to fight to the death for their Caesar's entertainment. I see a lot of similarities between the treatment of football players and gladiators.

I wasn’t in the pay the players camp before because I like the idea of “students” engaging in co-curriculars including sports. But I now see the athletics department’s true colors and have changed my mind. They have absolutely nothing to do with helping students or education. Time to pay the players and start taxing athletic departments. They are not about student well being, they are about padding the pockets of a bunch of Caesars.

Highway26north
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Joined: March 23rd, 2018, 12:32 am

Post by Highway26north » May 27th, 2020, 7:55 am

The problem is keeping the highest bidders from getting all the very best players. Professional sports over the past 40 years or so all have developed some method to maintain the fiction that Tampa Bay or Milwaukee can compete with the Yankees and Red Sox of the world. Usually it's a draft/salary cap of some design. College sports is bad enough as is in terms of having no effective checks on the Alabamas of the football world and the Dukes/Ky/KS of the basketball world. If all you have is "pay 'em whatever the market will bear" you are going to complete the destruction of any semblance of competitive balance. It will be like the 1950s Yankees. Sure, I know, you gotta play the games and Duke isn't necessarily going to win. yada, yada, yada. The deck is stacked enough in their favor now, thank you very much. I say put some cap on what a school can pay their guys in any given year, and let the schools decide how to divvy it up. But I am sure I'm a voice in the wilderness on this and Nike and Adidas will have their say and reign supreme.

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