What happens downriver now

Discussion related to the K-State men's basketball team
tmcats
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Re: What happens downriver now

Post by tmcats » May 14th, 2020, 10:44 am

gdgjr78 wrote:
May 14th, 2020, 4:51 am
The irony of so many posters lauding knight in this thread but acting outraged at the way Martin coached is beyond belief 🤣. Apparently hypocrisy knows no bounds on this board
comparing knight and frank is like comparing an opera to a toilet flushing. frank has accomplished nothing.
"There ain't anybody stoppin' our ass!" CK

katlander
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Post by katlander » May 14th, 2020, 11:07 am

I guess this brings us back to self. Where does he weigh in on the jerko, cheato, coacho meter?

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Post by PurpleOnWhite » May 14th, 2020, 2:02 pm

Self is proclaimed as a great coach. I suppose many of us (you) could be as well were we (you) to acquire some of the best talent year after year.

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Post by KsJoey » May 14th, 2020, 2:48 pm

Self is a good coach. Not as good as his cheating record indicates, but even when you compare him to other coaches who get similar talent, Self does well. He is one of the best at working refs and he and his staff have developed a lot players who weren't considered elite talent coming out of HS, into elite college players. But again, you can't overlook his decades of cheating and give him respect for his coaching abilities, unless you're a KU fan or blueblood homer.

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gdgjr78
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Post by gdgjr78 » May 14th, 2020, 3:15 pm

tmcats wrote:
May 14th, 2020, 10:44 am
gdgjr78 wrote:
May 14th, 2020, 4:51 am
The irony of so many posters lauding knight in this thread but acting outraged at the way Martin coached is beyond belief 🤣. Apparently hypocrisy knows no bounds on this board
comparing knight and frank is like comparing an opera to a toilet flushing. frank has accomplished nothing.
Oh so the accomplishments justify the means? So if Martin had won a few more games or won a Big 12 title you'd be ok with the swearing, yelling, etc? Thats a rather disturbing opinion to have imo but I guess if that's the way you feel 🤷‍♂️
"Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

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Post by pulitzerdave » May 14th, 2020, 3:50 pm

Knight, Martin, they were both bullies. The only difference is one was (is) a more successful coach. So that coach (Knight) has certain sins forgiven by many. Just remember Lombardi's proverb - "winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."

Winning normalizes bad behavior.

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Post by tmcats » May 14th, 2020, 4:05 pm

three national championships, an olympic gold, not a hint of cheating (cough, cough, frankie), and all but 4 of his four-year players graduating were among the difference between the elite and comical, yes.

Bob Knight
As player:
NCAA champion (1960)
As head coach:
3× NCAA Division I Tournament (1976, 1981, 1987)
5× Final Four (1973, 1976, 1981, 1987, 1992)
11× Big Ten regular season (1973–1976, 1980, 1981, 1983, 1987, 1989, 1991, 1993)
NIT (1979)
Awards
2× Henry Iba Award (1975, 1989)
Naismith College Coach of the Year (1987)
3× AP Coach of the Year (1975, 1976, 1989)
Clair Bee Coach of the Year Award (2002)
8× Big Ten Coach of the Year (1973, 1975, 1976, 1980, 1981, 1989, 1992, 1993)

Frank Martin
NCAA Regional—Final Four (2017)
Awards
Big 12 Coach of the Year (2010)
Jim Phelan Award (2017)
USBWA District VI Coach of the Year (2010)
NABC District 8 Coach of the Year (2010)
Naismith Award for Men's Outstanding Contribution to Basketball (2007)
"There ain't anybody stoppin' our ass!" CK

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Post by gdgjr78 » May 14th, 2020, 4:34 pm

tmcats wrote:
May 14th, 2020, 4:05 pm
three national championships, an olympic gold, not a hint of cheating (cough, cough, frankie), and all but 4 of his four-year players graduating were among the difference between the elite and comical, yes.

Bob Knight
As player:
NCAA champion (1960)
As head coach:
3× NCAA Division I Tournament (1976, 1981, 1987)
5× Final Four (1973, 1976, 1981, 1987, 1992)
11× Big Ten regular season (1973–1976, 1980, 1981, 1983, 1987, 1989, 1991, 1993)
NIT (1979)
Awards
2× Henry Iba Award (1975, 1989)
Naismith College Coach of the Year (1987)
3× AP Coach of the Year (1975, 1976, 1989)
Clair Bee Coach of the Year Award (2002)
8× Big Ten Coach of the Year (1973, 1975, 1976, 1980, 1981, 1989, 1992, 1993)

Frank Martin
NCAA Regional—Final Four (2017)
Awards
Big 12 Coach of the Year (2010)
Jim Phelan Award (2017)
USBWA District VI Coach of the Year (2010)
NABC District 8 Coach of the Year (2010)
Naismith Award for Men's Outstanding Contribution to Basketball (2007)
Ok so now I know where you both stand. Yelling, swearing, and being abusive towards players is okay as long as you win enough but cheating (paying players etc) is a despicable offense and inexcusable no matter how much you win. Interesting stuff
"Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

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Post by mustang » May 14th, 2020, 4:39 pm

pulitzerdave wrote:
May 14th, 2020, 3:50 pm
Knight, Martin, they were both bullies. The only difference is one was (is) a more successful coach. So that coach (Knight) has certain sins forgiven by many. Just remember Lombardi's proverb - "winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."

Winning normalizes bad behavior.
I'm not a Frank Martin expert like some on here obviously are. I never cared for coaches that berate players and preach discipline but have none of it themselves. Knight is the classic case, punched a cop while coaching in the Pan Am games, insulted people who did not share his narrow vision any chance he got, physically and mentally abused players. In the world of Knight any coach that was not in tune with him was either a cheater or a terrible coach.

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Post by learnin » May 14th, 2020, 4:44 pm

Knight's accomplishments will always be tarnished by his abusiveness and that is a shame. History, I suspect, will be less kind than the present. I try to strike a balance because, with everyone, there is good and bad. If we think each and everyone of us doesn't have a dominant fault, hidden as it may be for some of us, then, our dominant fault is dishonesty. Every thing, under the sun, has a negative and positive.

So, I can acknowledge that Bob Knight was one of the best to coach the game of basketball. By this, I mean he had a great grasp of the game (as it existed in the 60's and 70's). When I say that Bob was a great coach, I refer only to his knowledge of the game. In the strict sense, Bob Knight was not a great coach in that a great coach, teacher, parent, leader, is one who realizes that each individual is different and has to be approached according to their temperament, etc. As a parent, I learned this the hard way. In short, I was a bad parent in my younger days. One size doesn't fit all. I suspect that, for every player who would praise Knight, there will be two who would tell you, off the record, that they have little respect for him.

So, in my opinion, Bob Knight was not a great coach in the strict sense of the word, but no one had a better grasp of how to play the game properly as the game existed before the shot clock and football was introduced into the game.

As some poster pointed out about Bill Self, yes, Bill Self is a good coach in that he has a good knowledge of the game and adapts well to changing conditions. But, he will never be a great coach, in the strict sense, because he cheated and cheated a great deal.

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