This year is inexcusable

Discussion related to the K-State men's basketball team
learnin
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Re: This year is inexcusable

Post by learnin » February 12th, 2020, 12:52 pm

csteel25 wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 10:17 am
My standard is the same. Average a top 4 finish.


So far:

1st
5th
6th
8th
6th
4th
1st
10th?

(1+5+6+8+6+4+1+10) / 8 = 5.1 Someone check my math/stats! (pulled from Wikipedia)

By my logic he should be fired even if he makes first place next year. Will bend a bit since he is a good guy/not cheating.

But anything beyond 4th place finish the next 3 years should result in firing immediately.
Two conference championships, after 0 for 30 plus years, makes your standard very debatable. I would say 3 successive years, like this year, and the AD should take a long hard look about the future.

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Post by wild@nite » February 12th, 2020, 1:12 pm

AJcat7755 wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 11:35 am
WVU was 15-21 (4-14) in 2018 - Huggins in year 12, still coaching

OSU was 12-20 (5-13) in 2018 - Boyton in year 2, still coaching
OSU was 12-20 (3-15) in 2015 - Ford in year 8, fired after the season

ISU was 13-18 (4-14) in 2017 - Prohm in year 3, still coaching

UT was 11-22 (4-14) in 2016 - Smart in year 2, still coaching

OU was 11-20 (5-13) in 2016 - Kruger in year 6, still coaching

TCU was 12-21 (2-16) in 2015 - Johnson in year 4, fired after the season
TCU was 18-15 (4-14) in 2014 - Johnson in year 3
TCU was 9-22 (0-18) in 2013 - Johnson in year 2
TCU was 11-21 (3-16) in 2012 - Johnson in year 1

TTU was 13-19 (3-15) in 2014 - Smith in year 2, left for Memphis
TTU was 11-20 (3-15) in 2012 - Walker serving as interim coach

KSU is currently 9-15 (2-9). They are currently favored in 2 of the 7 games. Add in a likely loss in the first round of the Big 12 tournament and no postseason the team will finish 11-21 (4-14).

Only KU, BU haven't had a huge down year since the new Big 12 was formed.

Newer coaches were given time to build (Boyton, Prohm, Smart, Johnson). Experienced coaches that continued to fail were fired (Ford, Johnson). Huggins and Kruger only had a single terrible year, and had also built credit with the school for past accomplishments. Neither of them had won 1, let alone 2 Big 12 titles. Like it or not, Weber is going to be back next year, and probably the year after that and will be given time to rebuild the roster with the 2 best recruiting classes in a row that the school has seen. If he can't show progress, then he will be fired when these young players are JRs or SRs and another coach will inherit a lot of talent to hit the ground running.
"Weber is going to be back next year"
Of course he will. He should be. What I have read on this thread is.... we aren't good, we didn't think we would be this bad, we're frustrated. However, this season puts some heat on Weber. The kind of heat that most programs would have after a dismal season. If it doesn't, then we have become pretty pathetic in our expectations of our program. Any fanbase in America would be concerned over first to worst and worst. Anyone calling for him not to be back next year? Please reply if you are. I think that would be a big mistake with this class that is signed, but your opinions are every bit as valid as anyone else's.
Last edited by wild@nite on February 12th, 2020, 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by wild@nite » February 12th, 2020, 1:20 pm

learnin wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 12:42 pm
ToledoCat#2 wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 10:41 am
What this team lacks is natural shooters, nuthin' else.

Well, we could use a little luck, too. That hail Mary shot that Anai made for the Pokes is indicative of our "bad luck" team.

I have yet to see this team quit trying hard.
Thank you. You are absolutely correct to bring that slop shot Anai made as an example of some of what is plaguing this team. They can't catch a break to get over the hump. TCU came up here, earlier, and couldn't miss an outside shot when it came down through the last half of the second half. Every time they make the move to take the game over, something happens like that slop shot.
You don't catch breaks to get over the hump. You make them. When you start poorly, get down, then make a run and get the game to within 2 possessions, as it seems is our season in a nutshell, you can't have poor possessions. This drives me nuts. Stupid, lackadaisical passes, fumble it out of bounds, fire up a bad shot, you name it, we've done it. You want your luck to change in basketball or life? Quit feeling sorry for yourself and do the fundamental things that will help change your luck. This "poor us" mentality from some of our fanbase is just maddening. It's always something other than poor play or poor coaching (because these are the things that lose "most" games for most programs). Play hard charts and bad luck meters don't interest me. You should play hard every time out and bad luck during games happens to people who want to sit around and feel sorry for themselves. The rest of us call it life and make corrections to stop the bad luck. Dean Wade had "bad luck" with his feet. That is different. We put ourselves in positions, game after game, that allows so called "bad luck" to happen. We keep playing the same stupid basketball, therefore, "bad luck" is going to follow us.

I hope like heck that our players don't sit around and talk about their "bad luck". If they do, that would explain why they aren't getting better.

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Post by learnin » February 12th, 2020, 1:47 pm

My point is simply this. How do you whittle back, from a 20 point deficit, and get within a possession of taking the lead, then you can't take the lead?
Can you grasp this phenomena? When you slowly come back from a 20 point deficit, you are playing better basketball, over an extended period time, than the other team. You are hitting more shots, over an extended period of time, than the other team. They're missing free throws or turning the ball over so that you can get back to within a possession. Then, all of a sudden, the table is turned.

Now. If this happens one or two times, you chalk it up to: "They just couldn't get over the hump."

But, when this situation occurs time and time again, it becomes something different. In fact, this has happened fifty times this year because it happens multiple times in every loss. After clawing back from a 20 point deficit, at Ames, we got within a possession, or two, and each time the lead would be extended. Then, we'd make another run and something would happen and they would extend again...and then it would happen again.
In the Baylor game, we made multiple runs after looking like the game was going to get out of hand. We'd get to within a possession or two and then something would happen and the lead would extend again. It happened multiple times last night.

In every one of these instances, it would have taken a couple of shots just going the other way; a couple of ball bounces the other way for a victory to be obtained.

Every gambler knows there are periods when, inexplicably, the cards are falling the right way. The dice are coming up the right way. Then, there are periods when nothing is coming up right. It is this way with everything in life.

Now, if we had our three 1,000 point scorers back, we'd have a few more wins without a doubt. But, even with them, you can go back to last year and see where, if a shot had not fallen, or a ball had not bounced a certain way a few times more, the whole year could be viewed differently.

And while we're at it, explain to me this phenomena.

Why is it when Carti has a great game, Xavier and Mike don't? Why is it when Xavier is hot, Carti and Mike aren't? Last night, Mike was hot, Carti was so so and Xavier was absolutely horrible. When they all click, we have a game like West Virginia.

These players shouldn't hang their head and curse bad luck, but I can guarantee you that they are sitting there thinking: "Man, we can't catch a break."

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Post by Wildwilly73 » February 12th, 2020, 1:49 pm

Puffdad wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 12:50 am
I certainly don't think it's time to pile on right now but yea things aren't pretty in Mudville. But on the other hand I'm not sure how basketball people couldn't see this coming. X and Cartier were role players on a good team last year. There were leaders on last years team and there were players who made all those playing with them look a lot better and they're pros now. It's a totally different animal now when you have no experience being the creator of offense. You just never know how that's going to turn out...... until you try it. And now we know.
Puff you are exactly right about our players being role players and we lost our leaders. All three were leaders in their own way. I think things change big time next year. It's going to help a great deal having the kids go on the trip to Europe and play together this summer. That will be a big advantage! I'm optimistic!

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Post by csteel25 » February 12th, 2020, 1:53 pm

learnin wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 12:52 pm
csteel25 wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 10:17 am
My standard is the same. Average a top 4 finish.


So far:

1st
5th
6th
8th
6th
4th
1st
10th?

(1+5+6+8+6+4+1+10) / 8 = 5.1 Someone check my math/stats! (pulled from Wikipedia)

By my logic he should be fired even if he makes first place next year. Will bend a bit since he is a good guy/not cheating.

But anything beyond 4th place finish the next 3 years should result in firing immediately.
Two conference championships, after 0 for 30 plus years, makes your standard very debatable. I would say 3 successive years, like this year, and the AD should take a long hard look about the future.
That's where I draw the line. Slightly above middle of the pack. Others will differ. I like Weber, and this year doesn't bother me a ton. But the results have to start becoming more consistent. Honestly, I think they will.

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Post by wild@nite » February 12th, 2020, 1:56 pm

LOL... We're going to have to disagree Learnin'. The fact that we've gotten down early that many times is what is to blame, not the one possession you call "bad luck". Change what you can change. That would be a better gameplan, more energy, and better play to avoid having to expend a ton of energy to scrape back. I don't think it's luck at all. Puff said it on another thread the other day and I wholeheartedly agree. Some teams play lights out when there isn't pressure. There is pressure when it's 0-0. Get down by double digits, now it's "let it fly" mentality because you're desperate. Get it back to 1-2 possessions again. Uh-oh.... Pressure. Tightening of the sphincter and bang, here we are again, and again, and again....

As a coach, a former athlete, and human being, I acknowledge bad luck happens, but this isn't it. We are THE cause of our bad luck. It's called crappy basketball, no confidence, dismal leadership, and poor shooting. Combine all of those and you have the perfect storm for your so called "bad luck".

My advice and what I'd tell my team. Ain't nobody feeling sorry for us (well except a few fans I guess), so get your dang heads up, go out there and change your destiny. Play hard, play free, and play smart. If you aren't ready to do that, then you're going to dig another big hole and then you get what you deserve.

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Post by Puffdad » February 12th, 2020, 2:07 pm

Lots of good posts and we all have our opinions and they’ve been well stated. Here’s my take. I would bet that Coach Weber would agree that this year was terrible and that it can’t continue. And I don’t think it will. The recruits are there to change things unless something unforeseen happens. X and Cartier were fine as role players. But the lack of recruits to go with them over the last 3 years was a clear sign to me for a disaster. But he’s certainly got a couple years to fix it and if he doesn’t even he would agree to walk away.

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Post by bhoovy » February 12th, 2020, 2:17 pm

I’m with wild@nite. The bad luck mentality or can’t catch a break mentality is weak sauce. When you constantly start off bad that’s not bad luck and by falling that far behind how can you use the “can’t catch a break” excuse? Constantly making the same mistakes over and over is not bad luck. And this team really lacks much of any confidence in shooting the ball. Whether that’s the losing that’s effecting or something with the coaching who knows, but when it’s the object of the game and you’re not doing it, well you end up with a record like they have.

This season for the most part has been like a rerun of some really bad sitcom played over and over each game day.

I would agree with those that say this team lack leadership. I believed someone would eventually emerge, but after 24 games, 11 of those conference, and no one has yet, it’s pretty safe to assume no one will as there’s just no one with that personality or make up, at least that’s an upperclassman. I don’t think it’s fair to say that of any frosh, but now they better understand someone needs to emerge over this upcoming offseason and going into next year.

I think Sneed has actually tried to some, but feel that unfortunately it’s hurting his game as he just isn’t sure how to do it and as of late really seems to be forcing things more. He took 2-3 shots last night that were just completely out of character for him and I think he’s just so frustrated with the losing he’s trying to force the issue.

The coaches should know who’s truly capable of being a leader and would hope they’ve been really encouraging and even pushing that player to take on the challenge of that role.

But bad luck and bad breaks have little to nothing to do with where this team currently sits.

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Post by AJcat7755 » February 12th, 2020, 2:39 pm

bhoovy wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 2:17 pm
I would agree with those that say this team lack leadership. I believed someone would eventually emerge, but after 24 games, 11 of those conference, and no one has yet, it’s pretty safe to assume no one will as there’s just no one with that personality or make up, at least that’s an upperclassman. I don’t think it’s fair to say that of any frosh, but now they better understand someone needs to emerge over this upcoming offseason and going into next year.

I think Sneed has actually tried to some, but feel that unfortunately it’s hurting his game as he just isn’t sure how to do it and as of late really seems to be forcing things more. He took 2-3 shots last night that were just completely out of character for him and I think he’s just so frustrated with the losing he’s trying to force the issue.

The coaches should know who’s truly capable of being a leader and would hope they’ve been really encouraging and even pushing that player to take on the challenge of that role.
:agree:

There isn't that Alpha dog, like Barry Brown was, that is leading this team that fires them up, and is willing to get in their faces when they screw up. The current upperclassmen don't seem to have that in them. Is there a single player that you can give trust with the ball with a last second shot to win the game like you could with Barry? Even if he didn't make it, you knew he wanted the ball and was confident in that attempt. The upperclassmen are a just a lot of role players.

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