Baylor Game Notes and Thread

Discussion related to the K-State men's basketball team
tmcats
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Re: Baylor Game Notes and Thread

Post by tmcats » February 4th, 2020, 12:19 pm

i thought baylor guards took advantage of all our smalls: carti, gordon, mike, and sloan. x kept them at bay. i didn't see carti guarding them any better than the others, frankly. none did that well. baylor's guards are strong, quick, deep, and can really shoot the rock. they were a clear difference last night.
"There ain't anybody stoppin' our ass!" CK

xtrawildcat
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Post by xtrawildcat » February 4th, 2020, 4:10 pm

tmcats wrote:
February 4th, 2020, 12:19 pm
i thought baylor guards took advantage of all our smalls: carti, gordon, mike, and sloan. x kept them at bay. i didn't see carti guarding them any better than the others, frankly. none did that well. baylor's guards are strong, quick, deep, and can really shoot the rock. they were a clear difference last night.
Not a problem if we disagree. Carti got three steals and Gordon a couple. I thought Cartis defense combined with Sneeds was creating some problems for Baylor. Number 45 got some drives later in the game. One was against Mike so it was really more about Baylor being good on offense. Sloan and D Gordon got caught helping too much a few times. Not even bad defense but Baylor took quick advantage and got an open three up before we could get there on a close out.

A Gordon didn't play many minutes but his defense was actually good. That was a positive. I thought Murphys D was pretty good too but I'll have to rewatch as I wasn't watching him that closely.

RichardZ
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Post by RichardZ » February 5th, 2020, 12:46 pm

I think our record would be a whole lot better if we didn't have those 5-8 minute scoring droughts. I know that is not an earth shaking observation, but we have lost quite a few games by just a few points. Six point to the #1 team in the country whilst having one of those droughts in the first five minutes of the game made a huge difference.

Do we need quicker times out? Anything to change the tempo when we go into our funk.

There are a lot of fighters on this team and they need our support.
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ksustars754
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Post by ksustars754 » February 5th, 2020, 2:04 pm

How much on-ball pressure is too much? For years I’ve wondered this when our guards repeatedly get smoked off the dribble then the wing defenders help off so much and there’s a wide-open kick out 3.

Baylor must have had 12 wide open, no dribble necessary, foot right behind 3pt line, looks. I get the argument about them having good guards but it’s something I’ve noticed against all good teams stemming back before Weber.

My thought (low BBIQ) is that maybe back off the on-ball pressure as to avoid the easy blow-bys which turn into scramble rotations and wide open shots. For example, David Sloan has a 0% chance of staying in front of an above average speed pg when playing him tight. Why not back him up and make that pg shoot a dribble pull-up? I get that with less pressure that the pg will be able to start the offense easier but to me, nothing starts the offense better than a pg straight blow-by.

Watutalkaboutwillis
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Post by Watutalkaboutwillis » February 5th, 2020, 2:56 pm

Its a balance. If you are going to talk hard nose defense and not pressure, that doesnt work. Soft defense and shooters will kill you and gives too easy of entry passes to the posts. Most good teams play up in your face defense. That's what has carried Weber and Martin before him to win. I would bet if you could find a true stat on it, defenses that pressure and use a good rotational defense like we try do, offenses have lower shooting %. Our second/thrid rotations arent fast enough to find the shooters. This also would be a lot better if you have a true rim protector. That makes it elite defense. We don't have that. A rim protector would allow the off guard to not have to help as hard. Just my opinion.

xtrawildcat
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Post by xtrawildcat » February 5th, 2020, 4:31 pm

ksustars754 wrote:
February 5th, 2020, 2:04 pm
How much on-ball pressure is too much? For years I’ve wondered this when our guards repeatedly get smoked off the dribble then the wing defenders help off so much and there’s a wide-open kick out 3.

Baylor must have had 12 wide open, no dribble necessary, foot right behind 3pt line, looks. I get the argument about them having good guards but it’s something I’ve noticed against all good teams stemming back before Weber.

My thought (low BBIQ) is that maybe back off the on-ball pressure as to avoid the easy blow-bys which turn into scramble rotations and wide open shots. For example, David Sloan has a 0% chance of staying in front of an above average speed pg when playing him tight. Why not back him up and make that pg shoot a dribble pull-up? I get that with less pressure that the pg will be able to start the offense easier but to me, nothing starts the offense better than a pg straight blow-by.
I thought against Baylor we helped some when we didn't really need to. For example, should never come off of Butler. Make him get his points by working for them instead of catch and shoot off dribble penetration.

I am really too negative on Sloans defensive lapses and it causes me to watch him and see his bad defensive plays while maybe missing some bad defense by other players. But I do think he is getting better. He is a good enough athlete where he should be able to stay in front of most players on the dribble. Hoping that ends up being a strength of his game as he keeps improving.

learnin
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Post by learnin » February 5th, 2020, 4:43 pm

On a team like Baylor, I would never come off their shooters. I'd give them the two points if necessary. We made a legend out of that local kid who plays for KU. Time and again, we helped to stop the drive and left him wide open so he could have the game of his life. We do this too often, IMHO.
After he hit two, he should never have been left alone again. Now, there are times when a team just has too much firepower and that may very well be the case with Baylor this year.

Hypeman
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Post by Hypeman » February 5th, 2020, 11:08 pm

Watutalkaboutwillis wrote:
February 5th, 2020, 2:56 pm
Its a balance. If you are going to talk hard nose defense and not pressure, that doesnt work. Soft defense and shooters will kill you and gives too easy of entry passes to the posts. Most good teams play up in your face defense. That's what has carried Weber and Martin before him to win. I would bet if you could find a true stat on it, defenses that pressure and use a good rotational defense like we try do, offenses have lower shooting %. Our second/thrid rotations arent fast enough to find the shooters. This also would be a lot better if you have a true rim protector. That makes it elite defense. We don't have that. A rim protector would allow the off guard to not have to help as hard. Just my opinion.
Good posts about defense, and I love to talk about the D. On ball pressure is important, but it is counter productive if you give up the blow-by. The defender needs to gauge the offensive player and give ground accordingly. Forcing to the sideline helps. I prescribe to Weber’s Bob Knight sideline baseline philosophy. Use that extra out of bounds defender.

Defense is also a team game. One late rotation, one blow by, one missed block out, and it all falls apart. That’s that hardest part for Freshman, they don’t rotate on time, and often foul. Remember Dean Wade his first couple years. Always in foul trouble. He reacted a step slow. I’m sure he got good coaching in high school, but he could probably always get there because of his physical tools. Things speed up when you get to college. Wade developed into and elite college defender his last two years because he reacted quicker and was always beating the offensive player to the spot.

The one thing we do that gets on my nerves is how hard we hedge with the big man. We have zero use for a shot blocker because they are hedging all the way to the half court line. Granted, the offensive player intentionally wants to ‘drag’ the defenders, but I like to show hard to make the dribbler change direction and then get back. We get hung up out front.

xtrawildcat
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Post by xtrawildcat » February 6th, 2020, 8:37 am

Hypeman wrote:
February 5th, 2020, 11:08 pm
Watutalkaboutwillis wrote:
February 5th, 2020, 2:56 pm
Its a balance. If you are going to talk hard nose defense and not pressure, that doesnt work. Soft defense and shooters will kill you and gives too easy of entry passes to the posts. Most good teams play up in your face defense. That's what has carried Weber and Martin before him to win. I would bet if you could find a true stat on it, defenses that pressure and use a good rotational defense like we try do, offenses have lower shooting %. Our second/thrid rotations arent fast enough to find the shooters. This also would be a lot better if you have a true rim protector. That makes it elite defense. We don't have that. A rim protector would allow the off guard to not have to help as hard. Just my opinion.
Good posts about defense, and I love to talk about the D. On ball pressure is important, but it is counter productive if you give up the blow-by. The defender needs to gauge the offensive player and give ground accordingly. Forcing to the sideline helps. I prescribe to Weber’s Bob Knight sideline baseline philosophy. Use that extra out of bounds defender.

Defense is also a team game. One late rotation, one blow by, one missed block out, and it all falls apart. That’s that hardest part for Freshman, they don’t rotate on time, and often foul. Remember Dean Wade his first couple years. Always in foul trouble. He reacted a step slow. I’m sure he got good coaching in high school, but he could probably always get there because of his physical tools. Things speed up when you get to college. Wade developed into and elite college defender his last two years because he reacted quicker and was always beating the offensive player to the spot.

The one thing we do that gets on my nerves is how hard we hedge with the big man. We have zero use for a shot blocker because they are hedging all the way to the half court line. Granted, the offensive player intentionally wants to ‘drag’ the defenders, but I like to show hard to make the dribbler change direction and then get back. We get hung up out front.
Good point about hedges but we seldom get beat when the big man rolls to the basket. Combination of our help defense usually being in place and our bigs being skilled at getting back to the big man. Mawien is really good at it. A few teams have taken advantage (TT) with Stockard but not many.

Puffdad
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Post by Puffdad » February 6th, 2020, 10:10 am

Each and every screen is done differently (or should be) as determined by the scouting report and who is involved in the defensive action. What hurt us against Baylor was we did hedge rather softly and ended up not taking the shot or the roll away. Kind of played it halfway in between. And then you just end up dragging with the ball. Then they’d toss to Gillespie who fired it to a wide open guard whose man was helping on Gillespie. And they shot wide open 3’s.

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