Wichita State reloads and is pretty good. Why can't we emulate this program?

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Hypeman
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Re: Wichita State reloads and is pretty good. Why can't we emulate this program?

Post by Hypeman » January 14th, 2020, 1:36 pm

AJcat7755 wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 1:26 pm
Hypeman wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 1:07 pm
:rofl: “ The Big 12 is generally considered a top 4 basketball league, not even close to the worst major conference.“ :rofl: Your opinion. But opinions are like butts.

The big 12 has gone all in for football and the b-ball is sucking. Trading out Nebraska for WVU helped, but outside of KU the rest of the league has ‘rarely’ been national contenders based on tourney records. OSU won a couple titles when they were part of the MVC and playing against more basketball oriented schools.
No, not an opinion. Backed by RPI, BPI, NCAA tournament success, etc. The Big 12 is a top 4 league yearly as a result of all of those metrics. They are not even the worst major team, let alone close to the AAC.

TTU played in the national title game last year. OU was in the F4 3 years ago. BU is top 5 right now. KU is there every year. Again, who in the AAC is even anywhere close to being there every year? With UConn leaving, Houston/Memphis/Cincinnati are NC title contenders better then the top of the Big 12? They would be lucky to make the E8. Even if you say it's only KU, the AAC doesn't even have anyone close to that. And then the yearly contender in the Big 12 is still better then the top of the AAC.

You have yet to provide any data to show that the AAC is anywhere close to the Big 12. If there is any opinion here, it's yours.
The loss of UConn may affect the AAC stature in the future but you don’t know what they will add. As it stands today, the AAC is nearly as good as the big 12. Certainly better historically at the top end with UConn, Cincy, Memphis, Houston, and throw WSU in there now. Their bottom feeders, like UCF did last year, can have solid years Just like our bottom feeders such as TxTech did last year.

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Post by AJcat7755 » January 14th, 2020, 2:48 pm

Hypeman wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 1:36 pm
AJcat7755 wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 1:26 pm


No, not an opinion. Backed by RPI, BPI, NCAA tournament success, etc. The Big 12 is a top 4 league yearly as a result of all of those metrics. They are not even the worst major team, let alone close to the AAC.

TTU played in the national title game last year. OU was in the F4 3 years ago. BU is top 5 right now. KU is there every year. Again, who in the AAC is even anywhere close to being there every year? With UConn leaving, Houston/Memphis/Cincinnati are NC title contenders better then the top of the Big 12? They would be lucky to make the E8. Even if you say it's only KU, the AAC doesn't even have anyone close to that. And then the yearly contender in the Big 12 is still better then the top of the AAC.

You have yet to provide any data to show that the AAC is anywhere close to the Big 12. If there is any opinion here, it's yours.
The loss of UConn may affect the AAC stature in the future but you don’t know what they will add. As it stands today, the AAC is nearly as good as the big 12. Certainly better historically at the top end with UConn, Cincy, Memphis, Houston, and throw WSU in there now. Their bottom feeders, like UCF did last year, can have solid years Just like our bottom feeders such as TxTech did last year.
The AAC is not adding anyone in 2020. Even if they add someone, who is out there that is better for their resume then UConn? Anyone they add is a step down.

You can't keep UConn in your argument since they are gone after this year. Even then, are they just not the KU of the AAC per your argument? But let's have them in there for this year. Outside of an additional NC, they haven't even been better then KU. Now a NC is a lot, but would anyone argue that UConn is a better program then KU? I hate KU as much as anyone, but they have been consistent in their history while UConn had a good 20 year run.

But if you want to talk historically, to save time, lets look at S16 or beyond.
Big 12: (10 teams in the league)
S16 - 110 (31 KU, 17 KSU, 11 WVU, 11 OSU, 10 OU, 10 UT, 7 TTU, 5 ISU, 4 BU, 4 TCU) - 11 per team
E8 - 76 (24 KU, 13 KSU, 11 OSU, 9 OU, 7 UT, 4 BU, 3 WVU, 2 ISU, 2 TTU, 1 TCU) - 7.6 per team *Every team in the league has at least made a E8 in their history
F4 - 39 (15 KU, 6 OSU, 5 OU, 4 KSU, 3 UT, 2 BU, 2 WVU, 1 TTU, 1 ISU) - 3.9 per team
NC - 5 (3 KU, 2 OSU) - .5 per team

AAC: (12 teams in the league)
S16 - 76 (18 UConn, 13 Cincy, 11 Memphis, 11 Houston, 7 Temple, 6 WSU, 6 SMU, 4 Tulsa) - 6.3 per team
E8 - 45 (11 UConn, 8 Cincy, 8 Temple, 6 Memphis, 5 Houston, 4 WSU, 2 SMU, 1 Tulsa) - 3.75 per team
F4 - 24 (6 Cincy, 5 UConn, 5 Houston, 3 Memphis, 2 WSU, 2 Temple, 1 SMU) - 2 per team
NC - 6 (4 UConn, 2 Cincy) - .5 per team

So it was shown that the AAC is not better in the recent years since the AAC has been formed, or historically. These leagues are not anywhere close to being the same. Even worse with UConn leaving.

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Post by Hypeman » January 14th, 2020, 3:04 pm

AJcat7755 wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 2:48 pm
Hypeman wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 1:36 pm


The loss of UConn may affect the AAC stature in the future but you don’t know what they will add. As it stands today, the AAC is nearly as good as the big 12. Certainly better historically at the top end with UConn, Cincy, Memphis, Houston, and throw WSU in there now. Their bottom feeders, like UCF did last year, can have solid years Just like our bottom feeders such as TxTech did last year.
The AAC is not adding anyone in 2020. Even if they add someone, who is out there that is better for their resume then UConn? Anyone they add is a step down.

You can't keep UConn in your argument since they are gone after this year. Even then, are they just not the KU of the AAC per your argument? But let's have them in there for this year. Outside of an additional NC, they haven't even been better then KU. Now a NC is a lot, but would anyone argue that UConn is a better program then KU? I hate KU as much as anyone, but they have been consistent in their history while UConn had a good 20 year run.

But if you want to talk historically, to save time, lets look at S16 or beyond.
Big 12: (10 teams in the league)
S16 - 110 (31 KU, 17 KSU, 11 WVU, 11 OSU, 10 OU, 10 UT, 7 TTU, 5 ISU, 4 BU, 4 TCU) - 11 per team
E8 - 76 (24 KU, 13 KSU, 11 OSU, 9 OU, 7 UT, 4 BU, 3 WVU, 2 ISU, 2 TTU, 1 TCU) - 7.6 per team
F4 - 39 (15 KU, 6 OSU, 5 OU, 4 KSU, 3 UT, 2 BU, 2 WVU, 1 TTU, 1 ISU) - 3.9 per team
NC - 5 (3 KU, 2 OSU) - .5 per team

AAC: (12 teams in the league)
S16 - 76 (18 UConn, 13 Cincy, 11 Memphis, 11 Houston, 7 Temple, 6 WSU, 6 SMU, 4 Tulsa) - 6.3 per team
E8 - 45 (11 UConn, 8 Cincy, 8 Temple, 6 Memphis, 5 Houston, 4 WSU, 2 SMU, 1 Tulsa) - 3.75 per team
F4 - 24 (6 Cincy, 5 UConn, 5 Houston, 3 Memphis, 2 WSU, 2 Temple, 1 SMU) - 2 per team
NC - 6 (4 UConn, 2 Cincy) - .5 per team

So it was shown that the AAC is not better in the recent years since the AAC has been formed, or historically. These leagues are not anywhere close to being the same. Even worse with UConn leaving.
Thanks for the data, I won’t spend the time proofing the errors like I did with your MVC data and just assume it is correct.

They look pretty close to me, which is what I said from the start, just below the Big 12. The big 12 has a bit more advancing, but they’ve had the benefit of being a football league and thus more invites. But the AAC has more going all the way with more potential title contending programs in UConn, Cincy, Memphis ...

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Post by AJcat7755 » January 14th, 2020, 3:26 pm

Hypeman wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 3:04 pm
AJcat7755 wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 2:48 pm


The AAC is not adding anyone in 2020. Even if they add someone, who is out there that is better for their resume then UConn? Anyone they add is a step down.

You can't keep UConn in your argument since they are gone after this year. Even then, are they just not the KU of the AAC per your argument? But let's have them in there for this year. Outside of an additional NC, they haven't even been better then KU. Now a NC is a lot, but would anyone argue that UConn is a better program then KU? I hate KU as much as anyone, but they have been consistent in their history while UConn had a good 20 year run.

But if you want to talk historically, to save time, lets look at S16 or beyond.
Big 12: (10 teams in the league)
S16 - 110 (31 KU, 17 KSU, 11 WVU, 11 OSU, 10 OU, 10 UT, 7 TTU, 5 ISU, 4 BU, 4 TCU) - 11 per team
E8 - 76 (24 KU, 13 KSU, 11 OSU, 9 OU, 7 UT, 4 BU, 3 WVU, 2 ISU, 2 TTU, 1 TCU) - 7.6 per team
F4 - 39 (15 KU, 6 OSU, 5 OU, 4 KSU, 3 UT, 2 BU, 2 WVU, 1 TTU, 1 ISU) - 3.9 per team
NC - 5 (3 KU, 2 OSU) - .5 per team

AAC: (12 teams in the league)
S16 - 76 (18 UConn, 13 Cincy, 11 Memphis, 11 Houston, 7 Temple, 6 WSU, 6 SMU, 4 Tulsa) - 6.3 per team
E8 - 45 (11 UConn, 8 Cincy, 8 Temple, 6 Memphis, 5 Houston, 4 WSU, 2 SMU, 1 Tulsa) - 3.75 per team
F4 - 24 (6 Cincy, 5 UConn, 5 Houston, 3 Memphis, 2 WSU, 2 Temple, 1 SMU) - 2 per team
NC - 6 (4 UConn, 2 Cincy) - .5 per team

So it was shown that the AAC is not better in the recent years since the AAC has been formed, or historically. These leagues are not anywhere close to being the same. Even worse with UConn leaving.
Thanks for the data, I won’t spend the time proofing the errors like I did with your MVC data and just assume it is correct.

They look pretty close to me, which is what I said from the start, just below the Big 12. The big 12 has a bit more advancing, but they’ve had the benefit of being a football league and thus more invites. But the AAC has more going all the way with more potential title contending programs in UConn, Cincy, Memphis ...
Again, where was the MVC data incorrect? You didn't even point anything out.

Being a football league has nothing to do with the number of invites. When teams play, and win, on tougher schedules, they get rewarded. When everyone in the conference does so as well, the whole conference benefits.

Again, UConn is gone after this year. WSU has been the closest to a title contender recently, and they did it in the MVC. They weren't even as close as TTU last year who played in title game last year. You can't get any closer to a title contender then playing in the title game last year. Cincinnati hasn't been a title contender since the 90s. Memphis was a contender with ineligible players and have had to vacate wins as a result. They are 3 coaches removed from Cal. So if you want to talk about title contenders, not sure how you can say the AAC has more when they haven't had as recent of teams, nor do they have as high of ranked teams this year.

Would you take a bet that the AAC wins a NC before the Big 12?

In terms of history of all time, the Big 12 has had 9 of the 10 teams play in the F4, which are title contenders. The AAC has 7 of 14, and that's including UConn.

I could do the same data for all of the major leagues, and the Big 12 wouldn't even be the bottom of that list. The AAC is the 7th best league in basketball. They are the best of the mid-majors by a large jump, but there is still a gap between them, and the majors. If you think the data above looks close, then that's your call, but sure doesn't seem that close to me.

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Post by Gorhoops » January 14th, 2020, 3:46 pm

The difference to me is not in the title contenders necessarily as it is in the strength of the middle and bottom of the league and in how the league structures their schedule. The double round robin in the Big 12, with high level coaches at every program, makes every night in the Big 12 a war and anyone can beat anyone on most nights.

Quickly, without looking, who is the coach at South Florida? Tulane? East Carolina? Heck I doubt many would know who is at SMU if he wasn't a K-Stater.

A really good example is WSU last year. They had a front-loaded schedule and they were what, 1-7 in the league out of the gates? Then they hit the soft underbelly of the schedule and they turned it around. But again, they were beating Tulane, E. Carolina, etc. and then were able to steal a close one from UCONN after losing to them by 20 in Storrs.

The AAC also plays an unbalanced schedule, so for example, WSU only plays UCONN once this year.

There is also quite a bit of uncertainty moving forward with the AAC as UCONN leaves. Can Cincy maintain the level that Cronin had them? With no UCONN and if Cincy were to fall a bit, man that really hurts that league at the top. I'm sure Penny will continue to get dudes to Memphis and I'm sure Kelvin will continue to grow Houston, unless he heads to the NBA and Marshall will keep WSU rolling. After that, there are some ?????

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Post by AJcat7755 » January 14th, 2020, 6:57 pm

Gorhoops wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 3:46 pm
The difference to me is not in the title contenders necessarily as it is in the strength of the middle and bottom of the league and in how the league structures their schedule. The double round robin in the Big 12, with high level coaches at every program, makes every night in the Big 12 a war and anyone can beat anyone on most nights.

Quickly, without looking, who is the coach at South Florida? Tulane? East Carolina? Heck I doubt many would know who is at SMU if he wasn't a K-Stater.

A really good example is WSU last year. They had a front-loaded schedule and they were what, 1-7 in the league out of the gates? Then they hit the soft underbelly of the schedule and they turned it around. But again, they were beating Tulane, E. Carolina, etc. and then were able to steal a close one from UCONN after losing to them by 20 in Storrs.

The AAC also plays an unbalanced schedule, so for example, WSU only plays UCONN once this year.

There is also quite a bit of uncertainty moving forward with the AAC as UCONN leaves. Can Cincy maintain the level that Cronin had them? With no UCONN and if Cincy were to fall a bit, man that really hurts that league at the top. I'm sure Penny will continue to get dudes to Memphis and I'm sure Kelvin will continue to grow Houston, unless he heads to the NBA and Marshall will keep WSU rolling. After that, there are some ?????
Speaking of coaches, if your coaches leave for the "major" conference jobs, or after they failed in those jobs and come to your conference, another indication of a mid-major conference.

Cronin leaving Cincinnati for UCLA
Haith left MU for Tulsa, but we all know the vacated wins were going to get him fired if he didn't
Sampson "resigning" from Indiana with a 5 year show clause and ending up at Houston
Cal from Memphis to Kentucky

But again, the AAC takes coaches from the lower mid-majors as well, so they are the top of the mid-majors.

Then again, KSU has a fired HC from a major job, but for the most part, the Big 12 coaches are from "lower" jobs and don't leave that often for other major jobs.

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Post by gdgjr78 » January 15th, 2020, 9:21 pm

Flipping around ESPN to see what's on and at this point espn is just trolling me because WSU is on again vs temple. They have 2 upperclassmen, go 10 deep, 19th youngest D1 team, and are 29-5 over their past 34 games (I watched for 5 mins and heard that)
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Post by mustang » January 15th, 2020, 10:51 pm

Marshall likely a lifer at WSU, elite coach in a great spot.

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Post by gdgjr78 » January 15th, 2020, 10:59 pm

Looks like wsu might lose at temple, at least there's that.
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Post by bhoovy » January 15th, 2020, 11:04 pm

gdgjr78 wrote:
January 15th, 2020, 10:59 pm
Looks like wsu might lose at temple, at least there's that.
Yeah WSU is having one of those really really bad nights. You know, like KSU has every night.

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