It's time to play for the future

Discussion related to the K-State men's basketball team
xtrawildcat
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Re: It's time to play for the future

Post by xtrawildcat » December 9th, 2019, 6:52 pm

katlander wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 6:31 pm
Getting back to Cartier, I think his biggest issue is that he is jacking up 3s. Just poor shot selection. He needs to attack the hoop and dish or finish as his first objective. He is just heaving it at times. Not good. I also think he would do better at the 2 spot in terms of scoring. Just doesn't seem like a natural point. Too bad they don't like Mike at the point. May have to rotate Cartier with Sloan & Sean Williams. Sloan may be the best option at point this year. Can Dejuan play point? Once they figure this and a few other things out they will get better and start hitting more shots IMO. Every year we seem to struggle early but eventually get better. I expect this year to be no different.
I agree his shots are tougher this year and not as much on kickouts like he got last year. But they are still open even if he gets them off a step back move. And I have to believe he is making those shots in practice or wouldn't be taking them in games. But he is also clanking free throws. So just like Kam last year, its also mental. They are starting to put the ball in other players hands and running him off screens but those are still not as good as looks he got last year. Regardless of the reason, he'll have to shoot better for us to have a good season.

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Post by xtrawildcat » December 9th, 2019, 6:57 pm

pulitzerdave wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 12:45 pm
Play the season out. Let the freshmen grow. Hope that the veterans show more leadership. Hope that we shoot the 3-ball better. Hope that we start making free throws. Expect that our offense will show more efficiency ... yes, all of that.

But at what point in the season to we stop with all of the excuses? At what point are we not a "new" team anymore? At what point do we give the freshmen a pass because of inexperience? At what point do we not lean on the Montavious Murphy crutch, as a reason for our failures? At what point do we just admit that this basketball team may not be very good, and just let them play. Sometimes teams jell, and sometimes they don't. Sometimes the parts fit, and sometimes they don't.

So let the season play out. It's Bruce Weber's job to figure it out. Down years happen.
I guess it doesn't matter what point we quit discussing reasons why we may not be winning. Its the only team I invest a lot to time and energy in. I'll continue to do that til they have played themselves out of a tournament berth or decent finish in the Big 12. Guess I'll continue to do it even after that.

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Post by xtrawildcat » December 9th, 2019, 6:59 pm

One correction. I double checked the three percentages and we shot 30% from three last year in non con. Same as we are shooting this year.

One thing that will help that percentage is the guys who are not making them will not be on the court or if they are, will reduce their attempts.

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Post by Piedmontcat » December 9th, 2019, 9:42 pm

This team was bound to struggle early. 3 senior leaders (and very good players) leaving was going to thrust people into new roles. The 3 freshmen and Sloan are talented, but very inexperienced. I thought we’d look better than we have because I thought Mak and X, as the 2 experienced people whose roles haven’t changed much, would perform at an improved level. That hasn’t happened and the other guys have predictably struggled at times in new roles. I still think this team can be good, but it’s time for everyone, from seniors to freshmen, to take it up a notch.

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Post by pulitzerdave » December 9th, 2019, 10:19 pm

Gorhoops wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 1:18 pm
So let me ask the question, how many minutes should the freshman be playing? Antonio is currently playing almost 22mpg, DaJuan is playing 22mpg and Murphy was playing 29mpg before his injury.

How many minutes do we ideally want them to play to develop more for the future? Who should get fewer minutes if the freshman play more? Stockard is currently getting 16mpg and that would probably be less if Murphy was healthy. Mike gets 24mpg, but Mike is a really good defender and has some offensive ability as well, just inconsistent. Xavier and Carti are going to play, no question, so not really any reason to debate whether they should play less.

Just curious what people think as far as how many minutes is ideal for the freshman to play.
I don't think there's a definitive answer to that question. I'm not advocating a big increase in minutes played by the freshmen. As you and others have pointed out, they are freshmen, and that could be problematic with the length of the season, and the intensity of the games and practices. I do advocate a more expanded role for the three freshmen, within the minutes that they are now playing.

Now, does that come with just more game experience or are there other factors involved. If it's true that D. Gordon, in the judgment of coach Weber, can be a scoring force for this team, then that needs to be cultivated in practices. If we need to experiment more with the other two freshmen as to their offensive potential, then we need to do that as well. This team needs some offensive octane. And some of this HAS to come from our three freshmen - more than what we've seen so far. I use the word cultivate, because that is what must be done. You could add the word nurture to the process as well. It's going to take perhaps an uncommon belief by the freshmen that they can be better than they thought they could be in their first year. The coaching staff can help muster that belief.

These kids need to continue to play the minutes they are playing, but move away from being just role players. As I see it, there are no stars on this team. Given that, there is no room for role players. Each player's strengths need to be maximized. And soon!

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Post by Gorhoops » December 10th, 2019, 9:30 am

pulitzerdave wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 10:19 pm
Gorhoops wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 1:18 pm
So let me ask the question, how many minutes should the freshman be playing? Antonio is currently playing almost 22mpg, DaJuan is playing 22mpg and Murphy was playing 29mpg before his injury.

How many minutes do we ideally want them to play to develop more for the future? Who should get fewer minutes if the freshman play more? Stockard is currently getting 16mpg and that would probably be less if Murphy was healthy. Mike gets 24mpg, but Mike is a really good defender and has some offensive ability as well, just inconsistent. Xavier and Carti are going to play, no question, so not really any reason to debate whether they should play less.

Just curious what people think as far as how many minutes is ideal for the freshman to play.
I don't think there's a definitive answer to that question. I'm not advocating a big increase in minutes played by the freshmen. As you and others have pointed out, they are freshmen, and that could be problematic with the length of the season, and the intensity of the games and practices. I do advocate a more expanded role for the three freshmen, within the minutes that they are now playing.

Now, does that come with just more game experience or are there other factors involved. If it's true that D. Gordon, in the judgment of coach Weber, can be a scoring force for this team, then that needs to be cultivated in practices. If we need to experiment more with the other two freshmen as to their offensive potential, then we need to do that as well. This team needs some offensive octane. And some of this HAS to come from our three freshmen - more than what we've seen so far. I use the word cultivate, because that is what must be done. You could add the word nurture to the process as well. It's going to take perhaps an uncommon belief by the freshmen that they can be better than they thought they could be in their first year. The coaching staff can help muster that belief.

These kids need to continue to play the minutes they are playing, but move away from being just role players. As I see it, there are no stars on this team. Given that, there is no room for role players. Each player's strengths need to be maximized. And soon!

I agree with you 100% here. Ideally, as the freshman grow the roles will naturally morph into them taking on bigger roles and the older guys slide back into the roles they are more comfortable with. Unfortunately for us as fans, that time in between is going to be rough.

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Post by Puffdad » December 10th, 2019, 10:18 am

Puffdad wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 12:50 pm
xtrawildcat wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 10:13 am
We went over all of this last year. I don't know how this team will turn out but I would suggest just as much patience as last year will be required by fans.

1. Last year we were shooting 28% from three in non con games. This year we are shooting .295 from three. If we shoot 29% from three the rest of the year, you are correct we will have a bad year.

2. Diarra is a .386 career shooter from three. Currently shooting 21%. If Diarra shoots 21% the rest of the year, you are correct we will have a bad year. He is playing a differrent role this year but most of the threes he are taking are open. The fact he is struggling at the line shows he is in a slump. We should all be hoping he comes out of it just like Kam did last year about this time. IE, remember Kam having to make 5 out of 7 threes to get us a 1 point win against Georgia State last year.

3. IMO, we are struggling on some aspects of our defense due to the freshmen, Sloan and guys like Shaun Williams are having some issues on positioning. If they don't improve on defense, we will continue to see more open shots than we like. But at the same time, we are turning teams over at a high rate. For example, we had 10 turnovers against Marquette and 10 steals. Most nights that will get you a win if you make some shots.

4. Our offense against Marguette was actually good except for not making close shots at the rim in the first half and not making free throws. We ran and got open shots in transition and also when we ran half court offense. Just didn't make enough of them.
Concerning Cartier... why do others think he is shooting 21% this year vs. being a 38% career shooter???

a. He’s forcing it because he knows he has to?
b. Because he is playing point guard instead of shooting guard?
c. He’s just in a slump?
d. Because the other team is concentrating on guarding him harder? or
e. Because he doesn’t have Dean or Barry or Kam taking pressure off him and assisting him on easier more wide open shots?

Food for thought and discussion!!
I probably should have moved this to a new thread. But I’ll try again for those who recognize somethings different with Cartier and would like to see him get it fixed. My own thoughts it is mostly answer e with a little bit of a and d affecting him right now.

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Pick 'Em

Post by wild@nite » December 10th, 2019, 11:21 am

I think it's a mixture, but I don't put it all on the player. The staff doesn't seem to be guru's in coaching the offensive side or breeding confidence in a player. Just an observation and not a one year observation. Great at coaching 'em up defensively, but the other side of the ball? Not so much. If that hurts anyone's feelings, sorry, but it's the truth.
Last edited by wild@nite on December 10th, 2019, 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by tmcats » December 10th, 2019, 12:49 pm

If you’re looking for some positive Kansas State basketball news, it comes in the form of head coach Bruce Weber earning quite the award today.

On Monday morning, USA basketball announced that Weber was named a co-recipient of the 2019 USA Basketball National Coach of the Year, alongside Louisville women’s basketball’s Jeff Walz. Both coaches led their respective USA Basketball teams to 7-0 records and gold medals in the 2019 FIBA U19 World Cup this summer.
GP
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Post by learnin » December 10th, 2019, 1:19 pm

Puffdad wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 10:18 am
Puffdad wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 12:50 pm


Concerning Cartier... why do others think he is shooting 21% this year vs. being a 38% career shooter???

a. He’s forcing it because he knows he has to?
b. Because he is playing point guard instead of shooting guard?
c. He’s just in a slump?
d. Because the other team is concentrating on guarding him harder? or
e. Because he doesn’t have Dean or Barry or Kam taking pressure off him and assisting him on easier more wide open shots?

Food for thought and discussion!!
I probably should have moved this to a new thread. But I’ll try again for those who recognize somethings different with Cartier and would like to see him get it fixed. My own thoughts it is mostly answer e with a little bit of a and d affecting him right now.

Good food for discussion, puffdad. We know that Cartier is a decent shooter. Even last year, he was one of our best shooters. Xavier is, also, a decent shooter. I believe Sloan is a decent shooter along with D. and A. Gordon. Mak is a decent shooter when he's facing the basket. Mike is a decent shooter. Weber says this is a good shooting team and I agree from what I saw before the year began and based on history.

I agree with your answers. There is no doubt that added pressure was placed upon X and Cartier with the loss of three of the better scorers in program history. They now feel they have to step up their scoring.

At any rate, pun intended, the shooting has to improve. They are overthinking this shooting thing. They're not the first to do so. It seems, every year, our teams, especially early in the season, can hardly throw it in the barn. Every year, our teams miss layups, bunnies and shoot dismal from the free throw line and 3 point line.

It's mind games and why it happens, every year, I cannot explain. As xtrawildcat pointed out, it generally gets better as the season proceeds.
At the free throw line, against Marquette, our players were taking way too long to shoot a free throw. The more you think, the more you're going to miss. One time, Cartier took so long, I thought the refs were going to blow a whistle. What happened? He almost missed the whole rim. It went way off to the left. After shooting and barely missing a 3, I saw Cartier repeating his form before proceeding back on defense.

Sometimes, I believe our players, or others who report to the players, read forums and see all the comments we fans make about poor shooting and then our guys begin to over think shooting. So, players, if you're reading, DON'T OVERTHINK THIS. You're good shooters. Let it fly. If you miss, the next one is going in! Step up to the darned free throw line. Get the ball from the official. Take two bounces at the most, pull up and shoot. Do not think about form.

The game of basketball is a game of rhythm. Have you ever seen someone, who does not have rhythm, try to dance? If you have rhythm, you don't need to think about it. It comes natural. Motion, rhythm.......you can't have one without the other. That's why teams are more accurate on 3's, as a general rule, when balls are kicked out to them. They step in to it and a natural rhythm is produced. Even a pure shooter who can shoot off the dribble...creating his or her own shot......it's a thing of rhythm. That ball is pounding the floor....it pops up into the hand, and when the shooter feels the rhythm is flowin, he springs to the air and releases....swish.

Think about what DJ did to begin making free throws. He developed a rhythm. He would bounce the ball a couple of times and then he would backspin the ball on the last bounce, catch it and shoot.

The time to think about form, etc., is at practice. During scrimmages, and games, you better be in the zone....not thinking....but feeling it.

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