It's time to play for the future

Discussion related to the K-State men's basketball team
Puffdad
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Re: It's time to play for the future

Post by Puffdad » December 9th, 2019, 12:50 pm

xtrawildcat wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 10:13 am
We went over all of this last year. I don't know how this team will turn out but I would suggest just as much patience as last year will be required by fans.

1. Last year we were shooting 28% from three in non con games. This year we are shooting .295 from three. If we shoot 29% from three the rest of the year, you are correct we will have a bad year.

2. Diarra is a .386 career shooter from three. Currently shooting 21%. If Diarra shoots 21% the rest of the year, you are correct we will have a bad year. He is playing a differrent role this year but most of the threes he are taking are open. The fact he is struggling at the line shows he is in a slump. We should all be hoping he comes out of it just like Kam did last year about this time. IE, remember Kam having to make 5 out of 7 threes to get us a 1 point win against Georgia State last year.

3. IMO, we are struggling on some aspects of our defense due to the freshmen, Sloan and guys like Shaun Williams are having some issues on positioning. If they don't improve on defense, we will continue to see more open shots than we like. But at the same time, we are turning teams over at a high rate. For example, we had 10 turnovers against Marquette and 10 steals. Most nights that will get you a win if you make some shots.

4. Our offense against Marguette was actually good except for not making close shots at the rim in the first half and not making free throws. We ran and got open shots in transition and also when we ran half court offense. Just didn't make enough of them.
Concerning Cartier... why do others think he is shooting 21% this year vs. being a 38% career shooter???

a. He’s forcing it because he knows he has to?
b. Because he is playing point guard instead of shooting guard?
c. He’s just in a slump?
d. Because the other team is concentrating on guarding him harder? or
e. Because he doesn’t have Dean or Barry or Kam taking pressure off him and assisting him on easier more wide open shots?

Food for thought and discussion!!
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KITNooga (December 9th, 2019, 12:56 pm)

wazucat
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Post by wazucat » December 9th, 2019, 1:02 pm

xtrawildcat wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 10:13 am
We went over all of this last year. I don't know how this team will turn out but I would suggest just as much patience as last year will be required by fans.

1. Last year we were shooting 28% from three in non con games. This year we are shooting .295 from three. If we shoot 29% from three the rest of the year, you are correct we will have a bad year.

2. Diarra is a .386 career shooter from three. Currently shooting 21%. If Diarra shoots 21% the rest of the year, you are correct we will have a bad year. He is playing a differrent role this year but most of the threes he are taking are open. The fact he is struggling at the line shows he is in a slump. We should all be hoping he comes out of it just like Kam did last year about this time. IE, remember Kam having to make 5 out of 7 threes to get us a 1 point win against Georgia State last year.

3. IMO, we are struggling on some aspects of our defense due to the freshmen, Sloan and guys like Shaun Williams are having some issues on positioning. If they don't improve on defense, we will continue to see more open shots than we like. But at the same time, we are turning teams over at a high rate. For example, we had 10 turnovers against Marquette and 10 steals. Most nights that will get you a win if you make some shots.

4. Our offense against Marguette was actually good except for not making close shots at the rim in the first half and not making free throws. We ran and got open shots in transition and also when we ran half court offense. Just didn't make enough of them.
Your points are valid. We seem to be getting open shots. We are consistently clanking them. Could we start making them, sure. Am I going to bet the house on that, NO.

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Post by Gorhoops » December 9th, 2019, 1:18 pm

So let me ask the question, how many minutes should the freshman be playing? Antonio is currently playing almost 22mpg, DaJuan is playing 22mpg and Murphy was playing 29mpg before his injury.

How many minutes do we ideally want them to play to develop more for the future? Who should get fewer minutes if the freshman play more? Stockard is currently getting 16mpg and that would probably be less if Murphy was healthy. Mike gets 24mpg, but Mike is a really good defender and has some offensive ability as well, just inconsistent. Xavier and Carti are going to play, no question, so not really any reason to debate whether they should play less.

Just curious what people think as far as how many minutes is ideal for the freshman to play.

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Post by xtrawildcat » December 9th, 2019, 1:38 pm

My opiniion is minutes are about right during the last two games except A Gordon playing 30 minutes as he did is too many. Get Murphy back and that will be corrected with both getting around 20 to 25 a game. Stockards minutes will also go down a little.
Minutes for Sloan and Shaun are about right also but one of them is going to end up earning most of those minutes. Looks like Sloan right now but that could change.

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Post by JOKKO » December 9th, 2019, 1:57 pm

Playing for the future can be done, but playing for the "right now" should always be done. KSU needs to play the players that will help them win more games whether they are seniors or freshmen. Sure, they have been very disappointing to this point, but discarding older players so the younger ones can get more experience is just foolish. If the seniors continue to struggle, they will find plenty of time with the best seat in the house to watch games.

Tanking is not a thing in college sports. Finishing last in the conference will not bring in a higher recruit. It will just hinder this team & future classes.

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Post by IStillLikeHarv » December 9th, 2019, 3:09 pm

pulitzerdave wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 12:45 pm
Play the season out. Let the freshmen grow. Hope that the veterans show more leadership. Hope that we shoot the 3-ball better. Hope that we start making free throws. Expect that our offense will show more efficiency ... yes, all of that.

But at what point in the season to we stop with all of the excuses? At what point are we not a "new" team anymore? At what point do we give the freshmen a pass because of inexperience? At what point do we not lean on the Montavious Murphy crutch, as a reason for our failures? At what point do we just admit that this basketball team may not be very good, and just let them play. Sometimes teams jell, and sometimes they don't. Sometimes the parts fit, and sometimes they don't.

So let the season play out. It's Bruce Weber's job to figure it out. Down years happen.

If we don't improve, then there will come a point where one just looks to next season. Right now I would just take it game by game and see what happens. At the very least, I would want to get halfway through the conference season and see where KSU is at before deciding to focus entirely on next season -- and I know we all hope that moment never comes for this team. If it does, then we jump off that bridge when we get to it I guess.

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Pick 'Em

Post by tmcats » December 9th, 2019, 5:07 pm

weber will cobble this squad together and be competitive in-season. he does it every year. hopefully, he gets murphy back soon because he's a large missing piece here. it would help if someone would take the alpha dog role. i keep hoping to see some real leadership from mike, X, carti, or even one the freshmen. right now, that seems to be a missing element.
"There ain't anybody stoppin' our ass!" CK

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Post by KITNooga » December 9th, 2019, 5:12 pm

Gorhoops wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 1:18 pm
So let me ask the question, how many minutes should the freshman be playing? Antonio is currently playing almost 22mpg, DaJuan is playing 22mpg and Murphy was playing 29mpg before his injury.

How many minutes do we ideally want them to play to develop more for the future? Who should get fewer minutes if the freshman play more? Stockard is currently getting 16mpg and that would probably be less if Murphy was healthy. Mike gets 24mpg, but Mike is a really good defender and has some offensive ability as well, just inconsistent. Xavier and Carti are going to play, no question, so not really any reason to debate whether they should play less.

Just curious what people think as far as how many minutes is ideal for the freshman to play.
how can anyone answer th is question without watching these kids practice?

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Post by katlander » December 9th, 2019, 6:31 pm

Getting back to Cartier, I think his biggest issue is that he is jacking up 3s. Just poor shot selection. He needs to attack the hoop and dish or finish as his first objective. He is just heaving it at times. Not good. I also think he would do better at the 2 spot in terms of scoring. Just doesn't seem like a natural point. Too bad they don't like Mike at the point. May have to rotate Cartier with Sloan & Sean Williams. Sloan may be the best option at point this year. Can Dejuan play point? Once they figure this and a few other things out they will get better and start hitting more shots IMO. Every year we seem to struggle early but eventually get better. I expect this year to be no different.

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Post by xtrawildcat » December 9th, 2019, 6:47 pm

wazucat wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 1:02 pm
xtrawildcat wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 10:13 am
We went over all of this last year. I don't know how this team will turn out but I would suggest just as much patience as last year will be required by fans.

1. Last year we were shooting 28% from three in non con games. This year we are shooting .295 from three. If we shoot 29% from three the rest of the year, you are correct we will have a bad year.

2. Diarra is a .386 career shooter from three. Currently shooting 21%. If Diarra shoots 21% the rest of the year, you are correct we will have a bad year. He is playing a differrent role this year but most of the threes he are taking are open. The fact he is struggling at the line shows he is in a slump. We should all be hoping he comes out of it just like Kam did last year about this time. IE, remember Kam having to make 5 out of 7 threes to get us a 1 point win against Georgia State last year.

3. IMO, we are struggling on some aspects of our defense due to the freshmen, Sloan and guys like Shaun Williams are having some issues on positioning. If they don't improve on defense, we will continue to see more open shots than we like. But at the same time, we are turning teams over at a high rate. For example, we had 10 turnovers against Marquette and 10 steals. Most nights that will get you a win if you make some shots.

4. Our offense against Marguette was actually good except for not making close shots at the rim in the first half and not making free throws. We ran and got open shots in transition and also when we ran half court offense. Just didn't make enough of them.
Your points are valid. We seem to be getting open shots. We are consistently clanking them. Could we start making them, sure. Am I going to bet the house on that, NO.
I agree with you. And I'm not going to bet the house on it either. (But I'll certainly be hoping) The fact WVU shot 29% from three last year in conference play shows its possible to shoot that bad for an extended stretch. And that really puts stress on every other area of the game. You have to play great defense, rebound run great offense and that may only keep you close if you don't make some shotss.

One possible reason to expect better is Weber has said on numerous occasions this is a good shooting team from range. And he is still stating they are shooting good in practice.
Last edited by xtrawildcat on December 9th, 2019, 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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