Florida A&M Game Notes and Thread

Discussion related to the K-State men's basketball team
learnin
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Re: Florida A&M Game Notes and Thread

Post by learnin » December 3rd, 2019, 8:51 pm

pulitzerdave wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 6:28 pm
learnin, I'm not sure what coach means by comfortable. Does that mean that he's too casual? Too careless? What? I'd like to see him take ownership of the team. Somebody better. These freshmen may need some a$$ kicking at times to shake them out of their deference. Maybe one of the upper classmen needs to hold one particular freshman accountable.

We need more from the Chicago Player of the Year. Much, much more. If he's that good, he'd better start showing it. We need his scoring. Isn't he supposed to be a scorer? This team struggles to score, and yet we have a big city MVP who hardly ever looks at the basket. Time's up D. Gordon. One fourth of the season is over. Before you know it, another fourth will pass. LET'S GO!!!!
I think, at the time he said it, Coach was meaning it as a compliment in that Cartier doesn't get shook. He stays calm. He doesn't look like a deer in the headlights when things are going badly. That's a good trait except when it isn't.

You asked about what some people see in D. Gordon. I would sum it up this way. In last night's game, first half, the Cats took a shot and it bounced high off the rim. Out of nowhere, D. Gordon swept in, grabbed the ball, and almost slammed the ball home. The ball didn't come off quite right enough for the young man to find the hoop, but that's not the point. The point is, the ball bounced into A&M's hands and they quickly took it up the court. The ball was knocked loose and we recovered. Which player knocked the ball loose? D. Gordon. The young man, who was last up the court because he attacked the offensive board so hard, made it back on defense and knocked the ball loose from his man on the other end of the court. The kid is a disrupter and it's going to pay dividends as time goes on.

I haven't seen anyone attack the offensive glass as hard as this young man and he's a guard. When he's in the game, and we miss a shot, D. Gordon is in the mix for the offensive board almost every time when he isn't out of position guarding on the perimeter. He might not corral it every time, but his hands are on the ball on quite a few shots that come off the glass. What is more, D. Gordon knocks the ball loose as much, if not more, than Barry. So far, similar to the near misses on the offensive glass, many of these "plays" are neutralized by the ball bouncing the wrong way. At this point, in time, you might say the ball is bouncing the wrong way for the young man, but that's going to change one of these days if he keeps that aggressiveness.

Now, about scoring. I think this young man could score double figures every game by default. But, as you've pointed out, he is deferring as Dean often did. In a way you can understand it this early on. The kid's a freshmen and there are veteran players ahead of him in Cartier, Mike, Xavier and Mak. You can understand a newcomer, unless he's Mike Beasley, not wanting to upstage these veterans. On the other hand, under Weber and it was the same under Martin, you don't stay in the game long if you're a newcomer and you miss a shot or turn the ball over. So, if you have step on your man, and see an opening to the bucket, you take it in if you're Cartier. If you're D. Gordon, you might think twice about doing so and getting it slapped away or getting in traffic and losing the handle. Sooner or later, we're going to have to find another scorer and there's only one way to do that, IMHO. You have to give some people the green light within reason and balance.

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Post by pulitzerdave » December 3rd, 2019, 8:53 pm

We may not have the luxury of these freshmen developing at an unhurried pace. We've had freshmen in the past (Marcus Foster comes to mind) who dove into the deep water headfirst. Was Marcus Foster a better talent than DaJuan Gordon?

If this team wants to reach it's full potential (whatever that is), then we need three guys putting on their Marcus Foster impersonation. Cue up the videos frosh and take a look! Just don't be the sophomore Marcus.

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Post by learnin » December 3rd, 2019, 8:58 pm

wild@nite wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 8:36 pm
I seem to remember another fantastic scorer who often deferred and quit looking at the basket. He did that for 4 years. It was my only complaint on a great, great KSU player. This kid is 7 games in. I believe it's the style of coaching. More team oriented, less one on one stuff like a lot of programs. We aren't going to out one on one people, so perhaps the style of play is new and he is doing what the staff is asking of him? I believe he is probably being coached to "let the game come to him" early in the year. Now, 20 games in, I'd hope he is scoring 10-15 pts per game fairly regularly.
I think you're spot on here. "let the game come to him" I think that's probably correct. So, the kid is trying to make a difference on defense and offensive glass. I think there is a reason why Frank and Bruce's teams played a lot of low scoring games and looked ugly much of the time. You emphasize defense and team ball on offense.

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Post by learnin » December 3rd, 2019, 9:03 pm

pulitzerdave wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 8:53 pm
We may not have the luxury of these freshmen developing at an unhurried pace. We've had freshmen in the past (Marcus Foster comes to mind) who dove into the deep water headfirst. Was Marcus Foster a better talent than DaJuan Gordon?

If this team wants to reach it's full potential (whatever that is), then we need three guys putting on their Marcus Foster impersonation. Cue up the videos frosh and take a look! Just don't be the sophomore Marcus.
I agree. Both situations are similar. Marcus, and these frosh, checked in when the program lost some major talent. Without forgetting our old diamonds, who are capable of scoring, we need to find a couple of new gems that will brighten the ring.

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Post by Highway26north » December 3rd, 2019, 10:39 pm

I'm not there to see how he acts pre-game or the expressions on his face, but I'd like to put in a good word for Carti.

Running the point is a completely different animal than being the off guard. Before this year it's been his job to receive a pass, hopefully in a spot where a 3 is available, or a drive straight to the hoop. He excelled at that. Now it's a completely different role. When he penetrates he's supposed to be looking for other guys and thinking about what THEY are going to do and whether THEY are going to be in a position to do something with the ball if/when he gets it to them. On top of that he's dealing with a cast of characters who don't necessarily have the experience to be where they would be if they saw what he sees and/or knew the offense better than they do. For now, at least, it's kind of like the blind leading the blind. Ideally there would have been a point guard coming up in his class or the one behind to move into that role this year. Maybe that was supposed to be SNW, but it ain't now, and I'm pretty sure it ain't going to be in the future either. So it's on him. I think he'll get a lot better at it but there is room for doubt for sure.

I'm really not seeing lackadaisical. I'm seeing penetrating too deep, getting in spots where there's no good place to go with the ball, and not being the finisher at the rim that Brown was. The only thing that's the same for him this year is shooting the 3, and you shoot the 3 better when your mind is clear. Also, it's what, 6 games? Cut the guy some slack. I love Carti (from afar!)

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Post by Puffdad » December 3rd, 2019, 11:21 pm

learnin wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 8:51 pm
pulitzerdave wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 6:28 pm
learnin, I'm not sure what coach means by comfortable. Does that mean that he's too casual? Too careless? What? I'd like to see him take ownership of the team. Somebody better. These freshmen may need some a$$ kicking at times to shake them out of their deference. Maybe one of the upper classmen needs to hold one particular freshman accountable.

We need more from the Chicago Player of the Year. Much, much more. If he's that good, he'd better start showing it. We need his scoring. Isn't he supposed to be a scorer? This team struggles to score, and yet we have a big city MVP who hardly ever looks at the basket. Time's up D. Gordon. One fourth of the season is over. Before you know it, another fourth will pass. LET'S GO!!!!
I think, at the time he said it, Coach was meaning it as a compliment in that Cartier doesn't get shook. He stays calm. He doesn't look like a deer in the headlights when things are going badly. That's a good trait except when it isn't.

You asked about what some people see in D. Gordon. I would sum it up this way. In last night's game, first half, the Cats took a shot and it bounced high off the rim. Out of nowhere, D. Gordon swept in, grabbed the ball, and almost slammed the ball home. The ball didn't come off quite right enough for the young man to find the hoop, but that's not the point. The point is, the ball bounced into A&M's hands and they quickly took it up the court. The ball was knocked loose and we recovered. Which player knocked the ball loose? D. Gordon. The young man, who was last up the court because he attacked the offensive board so hard, made it back on defense and knocked the ball loose from his man on the other end of the court. The kid is a disrupter and it's going to pay dividends as time goes on.

I haven't seen anyone attack the offensive glass as hard as this young man and he's a guard. When he's in the game, and we miss a shot, D. Gordon is in the mix for the offensive board almost every time when he isn't out of position guarding on the perimeter. He might not corral it every time, but his hands are on the ball on quite a few shots that come off the glass. What is more, D. Gordon knocks the ball loose as much, if not more, than Barry. So far, similar to the near misses on the offensive glass, many of these "plays" are neutralized by the ball bouncing the wrong way. At this point, in time, you might say the ball is bouncing the wrong way for the young man, but that's going to change one of these days if he keeps that aggressiveness.

Now, about scoring. I think this young man could score double figures every game by default. But, as you've pointed out, he is deferring as Dean often did. In a way you can understand it this early on. The kid's a freshmen and there are veteran players ahead of him in Cartier, Mike, Xavier and Mak. You can understand a newcomer, unless he's Mike Beasley, not wanting to upstage these veterans. On the other hand, under Weber and it was the same under Martin, you don't stay in the game long if you're a newcomer and you miss a shot or turn the ball over. So, if you have step on your man, and see an opening to the bucket, you take it in if you're Cartier. If you're D. Gordon, you might think twice about doing so and getting it slapped away or getting in traffic and losing the handle. Sooner or later, we're going to have to find another scorer and there's only one way to do that, IMHO. You have to give some people the green light within reason and balance.
There’s been several references to Dean Wade and the start of his freshman season to this years freshmen. So I checked it out. Dean Wade: freshman year first seven games: 88 points, 9-19 on 3 pt shots, 38 rebounds 8 assists.
D.Gordon 44 points, 5-16 on 3 pt shots, 22 rebounds, 3 assists.
A. Gordon 35 points, 4-14 on 3 pt shots,
25 rebounds, 4 assists.
M. Murphy (3 games) 15 points, 1-6 on 3 pt shots, 14 rebounds, 4 assists.

That’s pretty much equal minutes for all of them. Hoping this years freshmen learn how to defer like Dean did!! 😂 If you add all three of them together you get about the same production that Dean had as a freshman.

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Post by xtrawildcat » December 4th, 2019, 12:11 am

Highway26north wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 10:39 pm
I'm not there to see how he acts pre-game or the expressions on his face, but I'd like to put in a good word for Carti.

Running the point is a completely different animal than being the off guard. Before this year it's been his job to receive a pass, hopefully in a spot where a 3 is available, or a drive straight to the hoop. He excelled at that. Now it's a completely different role. When he penetrates he's supposed to be looking for other guys and thinking about what THEY are going to do and whether THEY are going to be in a position to do something with the ball if/when he gets it to them. On top of that he's dealing with a cast of characters who don't necessarily have the experience to be where they would be if they saw what he sees and/or knew the offense better than they do. For now, at least, it's kind of like the blind leading the blind. Ideally there would have been a point guard coming up in his class or the one behind to move into that role this year. Maybe that was supposed to be SNW, but it ain't now, and I'm pretty sure it ain't going to be in the future either. So it's on him. I think he'll get a lot better at it but there is room for doubt for sure.

I'm really not seeing lackadaisical. I'm seeing penetrating too deep, getting in spots where there's no good place to go with the ball, and not being the finisher at the rim that Brown was. The only thing that's the same for him this year is shooting the 3, and you shoot the 3 better when your mind is clear. Also, it's what, 6 games? Cut the guy some slack. I love Carti (from afar!)
You did a great job of putting my thoughts into words. And I have been critical of Diarra before. But I saw a lot on Monday night that made me beleive he will get there. The couple of bad kick outs are the same thing we saw from Brown and Stokes earlier in the lead guard roles. He is also a 38% shooter from three. That part of his game will come around.

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Post by hilltopwildcat » December 4th, 2019, 8:52 am

A win is still a win. Think miz losing at home to Charleston Southern. Twerk may be replacing all his coaches.

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Post by xtrawildcat » December 4th, 2019, 8:55 am

xtrawildcat wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 12:11 am
Highway26north wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 10:39 pm
I'm not there to see how he acts pre-game or the expressions on his face, but I'd like to put in a good word for Carti.

Running the point is a completely different animal than being the off guard. Before this year it's been his job to receive a pass, hopefully in a spot where a 3 is available, or a drive straight to the hoop. He excelled at that. Now it's a completely different role. When he penetrates he's supposed to be looking for other guys and thinking about what THEY are going to do and whether THEY are going to be in a position to do something with the ball if/when he gets it to them. On top of that he's dealing with a cast of characters who don't necessarily have the experience to be where they would be if they saw what he sees and/or knew the offense better than they do. For now, at least, it's kind of like the blind leading the blind. Ideally there would have been a point guard coming up in his class or the one behind to move into that role this year. Maybe that was supposed to be SNW, but it ain't now, and I'm pretty sure it ain't going to be in the future either. So it's on him. I think he'll get a lot better at it but there is room for doubt for sure.

I'm really not seeing lackadaisical. I'm seeing penetrating too deep, getting in spots where there's no good place to go with the ball, and not being the finisher at the rim that Brown was. The only thing that's the same for him this year is shooting the 3, and you shoot the 3 better when your mind is clear. Also, it's what, 6 games? Cut the guy some slack. I love Carti (from afar!)
You did a great job of putting my thoughts into words. And I have been critical of Diarra before. But I saw a lot on Monday night that made me beleive he will get there. The couple of bad kick outs are the same thing we saw from Brown and Stokes earlier in the lead guard roles. He is also a 38% shooter from three. That part of his game will come around.
I think I have a couple of options.
1. Complain about it and do nothing.
2. Complain about it and try to find a way to make it a value to me. I have already sent an email to Brian Smoller who is in charge of media for the Athletic department to complain. I upgraded my internet speed while receiving a cost reduction in the process. I am investigating purchase of either a Roku stick or Amazon firestick. If I beleive they will make my experience better I will do it.

Others can do what they like. I am pursuing option 2 and have already improved the experience with ESPN2. Not quite where I want it yet but I'll keep working on it and KSU will be doing the same thing through their provider as evidenced by the return email I got from Smoller.

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Pick 'Em

Post by wild@nite » December 4th, 2019, 9:38 am

Puffdad wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 11:21 pm
learnin wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 8:51 pm


I think, at the time he said it, Coach was meaning it as a compliment in that Cartier doesn't get shook. He stays calm. He doesn't look like a deer in the headlights when things are going badly. That's a good trait except when it isn't.

You asked about what some people see in D. Gordon. I would sum it up this way. In last night's game, first half, the Cats took a shot and it bounced high off the rim. Out of nowhere, D. Gordon swept in, grabbed the ball, and almost slammed the ball home. The ball didn't come off quite right enough for the young man to find the hoop, but that's not the point. The point is, the ball bounced into A&M's hands and they quickly took it up the court. The ball was knocked loose and we recovered. Which player knocked the ball loose? D. Gordon. The young man, who was last up the court because he attacked the offensive board so hard, made it back on defense and knocked the ball loose from his man on the other end of the court. The kid is a disrupter and it's going to pay dividends as time goes on.

I haven't seen anyone attack the offensive glass as hard as this young man and he's a guard. When he's in the game, and we miss a shot, D. Gordon is in the mix for the offensive board almost every time when he isn't out of position guarding on the perimeter. He might not corral it every time, but his hands are on the ball on quite a few shots that come off the glass. What is more, D. Gordon knocks the ball loose as much, if not more, than Barry. So far, similar to the near misses on the offensive glass, many of these "plays" are neutralized by the ball bouncing the wrong way. At this point, in time, you might say the ball is bouncing the wrong way for the young man, but that's going to change one of these days if he keeps that aggressiveness.

Now, about scoring. I think this young man could score double figures every game by default. But, as you've pointed out, he is deferring as Dean often did. In a way you can understand it this early on. The kid's a freshmen and there are veteran players ahead of him in Cartier, Mike, Xavier and Mak. You can understand a newcomer, unless he's Mike Beasley, not wanting to upstage these veterans. On the other hand, under Weber and it was the same under Martin, you don't stay in the game long if you're a newcomer and you miss a shot or turn the ball over. So, if you have step on your man, and see an opening to the bucket, you take it in if you're Cartier. If you're D. Gordon, you might think twice about doing so and getting it slapped away or getting in traffic and losing the handle. Sooner or later, we're going to have to find another scorer and there's only one way to do that, IMHO. You have to give some people the green light within reason and balance.
There’s been several references to Dean Wade and the start of his freshman season to this years freshmen. So I checked it out. Dean Wade: freshman year first seven games: 88 points, 9-19 on 3 pt shots, 38 rebounds 8 assists.
D.Gordon 44 points, 5-16 on 3 pt shots, 22 rebounds, 3 assists.
A. Gordon 35 points, 4-14 on 3 pt shots,
25 rebounds, 4 assists.
M. Murphy (3 games) 15 points, 1-6 on 3 pt shots, 14 rebounds, 4 assists.

That’s pretty much equal minutes for all of them. Hoping this years freshmen learn how to defer like Dean did!! 😂 If you add all three of them together you get about the same production that Dean had as a freshman.
Its a factual observation about Dean. I will add one more stat. Dean averaged 9.9ppg his freshman year and almost 3 of those pts came from the FT line, so, yes, he deferred often. Approximately 7.4ppg from the field. That's your argument? He averaged less his sophomore year.

What will be said about D. Gordon if he averages less next year than his freshman year? Not sure, but I absolutely think he is deferring right now,just like Dean. My point? Relax. He'll figure things out.

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