The dunk and the pass, and what they mean going forward

Discussion related to the K-State men's basketball team
learnin
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Re: The dunk and the pass, and what they mean going forward

Post by learnin » February 10th, 2019, 5:11 pm

katlander wrote:
February 10th, 2019, 3:48 pm
I think Cartier's improved play has a lot to do with the fact that his playing time was cut do to lackadaisical play, Even flat out sloppy at times. He seemed angry about losing minutes but finally accepted the decision and has since refocused and has been much better. Coach Weber commented that the recent good play was the result of Cartier spending more time in the gym lately working on his shot and other areas of his game. Now it may be time for Mak to ride the pine and see if we can light a fire under him.
I believe his lackadaisical play was due to not starting.

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Post by pulitzerdave » February 10th, 2019, 5:18 pm

WIldWIllieCat wrote:
February 10th, 2019, 2:38 pm
In what way is paying respect to Cartier slighting Mike?


It's not.

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Post by pulitzerdave » February 10th, 2019, 5:22 pm

Highway26north wrote:
February 10th, 2019, 3:44 pm
Great post Dave and great comments. My take is this: both Diarra and McGuirl have been guys you can put in in certain selected situations, matchups or whatever. You could almost always rely on them to be "dependable": take and make the open shot, hustle etc. Both have had excellent games in the past, going back to last year. But what's happened to Cartier in the last 10 days is exactly the word you chose: swagger. He's been playing not like a dependable piece, a place-filler. He sees an opening, there's no hesitation any more-he's gone. It's his job to make something happen, not to get in a position to receiving a pass from somebody else who made something happen. And athletically he's a load. From the post-game interviews it sounds like he prepared for this over past few weeks with extra time in the gym and now its there. It's hard for me to imagine the "old" Cartier in the absolute key moment in the game, crunch time x 10, thinking "I'm 3 feet behind the 3-point line and I'm wide open; launch it" Seems as I recall he did that 3 times yesterday and was 2 for 3. We'll take it. Harv's point about the defensive rotations is also perceptive; hadn't occurred to me.

I'm glad by the way that Weber sent Diarra out for the interviews-a tacit acknowledgement of ownership. In the interview he talked about the baseline save. My take had been that the situational awareness was just heave it into the backcourt and out of the scrum. But as he described it he saw Barry and had him in his sights when he made the pass. Not bad.

As for McGuirl, completely agree that praising Diarra is no knock on McGuirl. Personally I think McGuirl has the potential to take that next step as well. He has not taken it yet and maybe he won't this year. Or maybe he will. Certainly in important games he has stepped up big time after time. I've never seen them in person but the book says McGuirl is 6'2 and Diarra is 6'4. And pretty obviously Diarra looks ripped-has the strength to play through contact in a way that I don't think McGuirl does. Yet. But don't sleep on McGuirl either, not that I think anybody here is. His day will come and maybe sooner than we think. In the meantime you can still be pretty valuable lurking off there in the corner taking a pass and knocking it down.
His only miss came the possession before his incredible pass. That's important because the miss didn't bother him, he stayed focused on defense, and delivered a dagger.

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Post by KITNooga » February 10th, 2019, 5:32 pm

Highway26north wrote:
February 10th, 2019, 3:44 pm
Personally I think McGuirl has the potential to take that next step as well. He has not taken it yet and maybe he won't this year. Or maybe he will. Certainly in important games he has stepped up big time after time. I've never seen them in person but the book says McGuirl is 6'2 and Diarra is 6'4. And pretty obviously Diarra looks ripped-has the strength to play through contact in a way that I don't think McGuirl does. Yet. But don't sleep on McGuirl either, not that I think anybody here is. His day will come and maybe sooner than we think. In the meantime you can still be pretty valuable lurking off there in the corner taking a pass and knocking it down.
i think those who don't see the potential in Mike right now are missing it.
thought the 'ask' of him at Baylor to guard a MUCH taller player was just a bad mis-match. and they got Dean right back in.

I think Mike shoots better than Cartier, or has to this point. and has all the 'ups'. just a little less length.

those who may not see Mike's potential as well as his very real 'now' I think are going to be surprised in short order. His play in the tournament last year was no fluke.
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kinsleycat (February 10th, 2019, 7:23 pm)

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Post by Puffdad » February 10th, 2019, 5:38 pm

The possible combination of McGuirl and Diarra next year will certainly be the most athletic 1-2 combination in history. Not saying the best but most athletic.
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learnin (February 10th, 2019, 7:10 pm) • Section 12-2 (February 10th, 2019, 8:24 pm)

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Post by Wyldkatz » February 10th, 2019, 5:40 pm

I dont recall ever seeing any post saying Mcguirl didnt have potential. I think every fan on here would admit that he will be a starter next year. Not sure if you're just looking for an arguement or what?
Last edited by Wyldkatz on February 10th, 2019, 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by xtrawildcat » February 10th, 2019, 5:41 pm

learnin wrote:
February 10th, 2019, 5:07 pm
xtrawildcat wrote:
February 10th, 2019, 3:45 pm
Regarding Cartier losing his starting position. He didn't earn in it practice or games by outplaying Kam. Even had the opportunity to start while Kam was injured and didn't step up. Last two games he has made some threes, made some plays and quit making the dumb turnovers that reduced his playing time in earlier games. Maintain that level of play and he'll get lots of minutes and we'll be a better team.
As big as Carters steal and pass was against Baylor, his nailing two threes from the top of the zone was every bit as important to winning the game. That let the coaches move Kam down to the corner where he also made a three and drew a three shot foul.. Those four shots spaced over about an 8 minute span alowed us to remain close to Baylor, then go ahead of them. It also opened up the middle some for passes to Dean Wade on cuts and a short corner shot. IE after Kam had made a corner three, he faked the defender closing out , and got a pass to Dean cutting for the basket that he got fouled on.
I'll take Coach Weber's view. He cleared some question marks up for us. I think we had three players, at the beginning of the season, that thought they would be higher on the totem pole so to speak after the tournament run. As Coach said, "they had to learn their roles." I believe Xavier, Cartier and Mike had to "learn their roles" once again. I remarked very early, that I didn't like Xavier's body language along with Cartier. You can surely understand the situation. Xavier earned national praise for his tournament performance. Cartier was a starter. Mike, also, earned some national recognition. You come out thinking that everything is going to pick up just like it left off. Most of us would be prone to this. It took a while for all of them to realize that you can only achieve that recognition by playing together as a team. The recognition will come if you win. My questions have been answered.
I think it was a lot simpler than that. First of the year Weber was cautioning all the guards that they would have to share minutes. Then Kam stepped up and out played the other guys and secured the starting spot and 30 to 35 minutes a game. We are in fact a better team with him on the floor. Now Diarra is playing better and earned more time the last couple of games. If he doesn't keep playing at that level, McGuirl is fighting to get his minutes back.
And if Kam starts throwing up bricks and turning it over, he'll lose time to the two other guys.

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Post by pulitzerdave » February 10th, 2019, 5:45 pm

learnin wrote:
February 10th, 2019, 5:07 pm
xtrawildcat wrote:
February 10th, 2019, 3:45 pm
Regarding Cartier losing his starting position. He didn't earn in it practice or games by outplaying Kam. Even had the opportunity to start while Kam was injured and didn't step up. Last two games he has made some threes, made some plays and quit making the dumb turnovers that reduced his playing time in earlier games. Maintain that level of play and he'll get lots of minutes and we'll be a better team.
As big as Carters steal and pass was against Baylor, his nailing two threes from the top of the zone was every bit as important to winning the game. That let the coaches move Kam down to the corner where he also made a three and drew a three shot foul.. Those four shots spaced over about an 8 minute span alowed us to remain close to Baylor, then go ahead of them. It also opened up the middle some for passes to Dean Wade on cuts and a short corner shot. IE after Kam had made a corner three, he faked the defender closing out , and got a pass to Dean cutting for the basket that he got fouled on.
I'll take Coach Weber's view. He cleared some question marks up for us. I think we had three players, at the beginning of the season, that thought they would be higher on the totem pole so to speak after the tournament run. As Coach said, "they had to learn their roles." I believe Xavier, Cartier and Mike had to "learn their roles" once again. I remarked very early, that I didn't like Xavier's body language along with Cartier. You can surely understand the situation. Xavier earned national praise for his tournament performance. Cartier was a starter. Mike, also, earned some national recognition. You come out thinking that everything is going to pick up just like it left off. Most of us would be prone to this. It took a while for all of them to realize that you can only achieve that recognition by playing together as a team. The recognition will come if you win. My questions have been answered.
learnin, although Cartier didn't "beat out" Stokes for the starting point guard position, he did arguably play better than Stokes had been playing before he got injured. That's why he may have believed that he had won the starting spot. When the younger guy steps in for an injured veteran, it creates a difficult situation for both a coach and teammates once the veteran is healed and ready to return. Weber probably played it right last season. This season, there may have been certain expectations that weren't met to the satisfaction of Cartier.

When Tom Brady replaced an injured Drew Bledsoe, Bledsoe never got his starting spot back. Should he have? Is that the way it's suppose to always work?

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Post by learnin » February 10th, 2019, 7:16 pm

pulitzerdave wrote:
February 10th, 2019, 5:45 pm
learnin wrote:
February 10th, 2019, 5:07 pm


I'll take Coach Weber's view. He cleared some question marks up for us. I think we had three players, at the beginning of the season, that thought they would be higher on the totem pole so to speak after the tournament run. As Coach said, "they had to learn their roles." I believe Xavier, Cartier and Mike had to "learn their roles" once again. I remarked very early, that I didn't like Xavier's body language along with Cartier. You can surely understand the situation. Xavier earned national praise for his tournament performance. Cartier was a starter. Mike, also, earned some national recognition. You come out thinking that everything is going to pick up just like it left off. Most of us would be prone to this. It took a while for all of them to realize that you can only achieve that recognition by playing together as a team. The recognition will come if you win. My questions have been answered.
learnin, although Cartier didn't "beat out" Stokes for the starting point guard position, he did arguably play better than Stokes had been playing before he got injured. That's why he may have believed that he had won the starting spot. When the younger guy steps in for an injured veteran, it creates a difficult situation for both a coach and teammates once the veteran is healed and ready to return. Weber probably played it right last season. This season, there may have been certain expectations that weren't met to the satisfaction of Cartier.

When Tom Brady replaced an injured Drew Bledsoe, Bledsoe never got his starting spot back. Should he have? Is that the way it's suppose to always work?
Very tough questions. I'd hate to be the coach who has to make them. I think, if we go back, there were two significant things that happened last year when Kamau went down with an injury. Diarra came in and played very well. The second thing was the emergence of the real Dean Wade. It was at that point, that Dean decided to play up to his capability. It was then that Dean, I believe, rattled off a string of 20 plus performances. I don't wish to take away from Cartier's great performance last season when Kam went down. With Dean becoming aggressive, though, it took some pressure off the other players to perform better. For one thing, Barry began to attack the basket.

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Post by learnin » February 10th, 2019, 7:21 pm

I can tell you exactly when Cartier decided to get back doing what he had been doing last year. It was the West Virginia game. Weber benched Cartier in the second half and went with Mike McGuirl. Mike scored 20 or something I believe and played a heck of a game. The crowd was going berserk, during the come back, and our bench players were in a frenzy. I looked over at Cartier and he was reflective. It was at that very moment when he realized two things, IMHO.

1. If I'm not careful, Mike is going to be the sixth man.

2. I can still be a significant contributor as a sixth man. I can still get national attention.

As a result, he stayed in the gym, putting up shots, after the West Virginia game after everyone had left.

Look what happened: All of a sudden, national pundits are mentioning his name and he has been on two highlight plays.
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Kralicek (February 10th, 2019, 9:01 pm)

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