Iowa State Game Thread

[wild@nite]

This stat means more to me, but I may be alone. If so, it's all good, but this means more to me than any one season or one title. It is what "defines" our program as a whole in my opinion.

Since the inception of the big 12, we only have an overall winning record against 2 other Big 12 teams and we might lose one of them this year. They are TCU and Texas Tech. Sure, that got off to a bad start with Asbury and Wooldridge, but it was improving with the next two, as they went 10-6 and 50-32 in conference (60-38 overall) for a 61.2% conference winning percentage. Our current HC (ample sample size) has a conference record of 57-55 for a 50.9% winning percentage.

This isn't to praise anything or bash anyone, it's to point out what we are as a program, and outside of a 7 year run under Huggins, 1 year, Martin 5 years, and Weber 1 year, we have been below average in conference overall, and yes, since Weber's first year we are below .500 in conference overall. Some of you can understand this frustration and some of you can't, but it is what it is.

[IStillLikeHarv]

... Maybe that is the nature of being a fan, but I come from a different background professionally, that compels me to look deeper than at the surface of things.

Dave is too modest to say it, but his greatest trait is no doubt his humility. I guess the rest of us can only dream of looking into the depths of reality that Dave sees. Alas, those mysteries remain opaque to the rest of us trapped in the Surface World.

[tmcats]

yeah, the dems and r's should get dave on board to solve the government shutdown. his deep analytical abilities would surely bring that to a quick resolution. maybe he could solve the israel/palestine question as well.

[pulitzerdave]

p'dave, you are basing your argument solely on ku, nothing else. k-state won the conference championship a few years ago. isu has not under their present model. k-state went e8 while isu went in the toilet last year.

i understand the ku angst. we all share that.

but your argument that somehow isu is today better placed in the conference based on their free-flowing system is flawed and wrong. e8 v. last place in the league last season should be enough evidence. 3 game losing streak to k-state, two in ames, even more. now granted, if all you measure is beating ku, you have a fine case, but mostly because you see yourself as a superior analyst to common country bumkins like me which, by the way, i don't accept.

Four Big 12 Tournament championships speaks for itself. So does 6 straight NCAA Tournament appearances. Before ISU's three game losing streak against us, we were 1-7 against them. If we had the same success against KU as ISU has had, then we'd all be swinging from the rafters with joy. Beating KU is the benchmark in our conference. It trumps EVERYTHING else. So as an argument for their success, it is strong ... very strong! And as I have just pointed out, it's not the only argument for their success beyond ours.

KU IS SUPPOSED TO BE OUR RIVAL. THEY REALLY ARE NOT. BECAUSE WE CAN'T BEAT THEM. They are not a rival any more than KU's football team is a rival for our football team. And might I remind you, that our basketball program has also been in the toilet in recent years.

You can dismiss ISU's free flowing offense but it has been effective in keys situations, when playing "better teams" and under the pressure of winning a conference tournament.

FACT: There would be more butts in the seats of Bramlage today if we had the same record against KU that ISU has recently had. When looking at "arguments", about which program has been more successful than another, ancillary factors swing the balance ... and you know it!

[Puffdad]

I would respectfully ask that we make posts about basketball and leave other posters alone.

[pulitzerdave]

I would respectfully ask that we make posts about basketball and leave other posters alone.

What does this mean? This is a debate. Debates often requite head to head arguments.

[Gorhoops]

I guess I am just confused. I don't remember reading where anyone was really bashing ISU. But if you are going to tell me KSU needs to model ourselves after ISU, I am going to question that. ISU has a nice program, but it is not better than KSU. Hoiberg did a nice job, but that loose and free-wheeling style, although great, also meant they were not ever very good defensively, so yes, they had good players in those years with Morris, etc. and they scored at a high clip and played pretty free and easy, but they were never going to win a conference title over an 18 game slate or make a deep run in the NCAA's with that "give up a shot to get a shot" mindset. We are kind of the opposite of that mindset. We don't play as free and easy on offense, but we do grind and pound on defense. That ground and pound style got us a share of the conference and got us a couple of Elite 8's in the last 8 years. That free-wheeling style of ISU works pretty well in a 3 day span in KC each March if you can catch fire, and it is also a good style to use to beat KU now and again if you can shoot out of your mind, like they did last week. But that doesn't travel real well, as we have seen from ISU the last two games.

I guess the problem I had was that ISU was being propped up as being so great, which is fine, while at the same time, KSU was being ridiculed about how they sucked the entire first 10 games, Mac has sucked all year, Dean has under-performed, etc etc etc. I will be more than willing to understand KSU's weaknesses, but I am not going to listen to someone blow up a program no better than us like ISU and then run KSU into the ground and then pretend that you are just being honest with yourself or whatever other justification is used make yourself feel better.

I will say this from my 25 years of coaching high school/middle school basketball. As a program you have to be who you are. ISU is who they are, and KSU is who they are, and both have worked to a bit of success. I also know this, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to play a down and dirty, grind it out style of defense, and then turn around and play a loosy-goosy, free-wheeling style of offense. It is just very difficult to have players trying to change their mindset from one end of the floor to the other.

[Puffdad]

I would respectfully ask that we make posts about basketball and leave other posters alone.

What does this mean? This is a debate. Debates often requite head to head arguments.

I mean there were some previous posts that looked to be more personal than a debate about anything basketball related. You might want to reread....but then again maybe you shouldnt.

[pulitzerdave]

What does this mean? This is a debate. Debates often requite head to head arguments.

I mean there were some previous posts that looked to be more personal than a debate about anything basketball related. You might want to reread....but then again maybe you shouldnt.

Is this what you're referring to from tmcats? "... but mostly because you see yourself as a superior analyst to common country bumkins like me which, by the way, i don't accept."

[pulitzerdave]

I guess I am just confused. I don't remember reading where anyone was really bashing ISU. But if you are going to tell me KSU needs to model ourselves after ISU, I am going to question that. ISU has a nice program, but it is not better than KSU. Hoiberg did a nice job, but that loose and free-wheeling style, although great, also meant they were not ever very good defensively, so yes, they had good players in those years with Morris, etc. and they scored at a high clip and played pretty free and easy, but they were never going to win a conference title over an 18 game slate or make a deep run in the NCAA's with that "give up a shot to get a shot" mindset. We are kind of the opposite of that mindset. We don't play as free and easy on offense, but we do grind and pound on defense. That ground and pound style got us a share of the conference and got us a couple of Elite 8's in the last 8 years. That free-wheeling style of ISU works pretty well in a 3 day span in KC each March if you can catch fire, and it is also a good style to use to beat KU now and again if you can shoot out of your mind, like they did last week. But that doesn't travel real well, as we have seen from ISU the last two games.

I guess the problem I had was that ISU was being propped up as being so great, which is fine, while at the same time, KSU was being ridiculed about how they sucked the entire first 10 games, Mac has sucked all year, Dean has under-performed, etc etc etc. I will be more than willing to understand KSU's weaknesses, but I am not going to listen to someone blow up a program no better than us like ISU and then run KSU into the ground and then pretend that you are just being honest with yourself or whatever other justification is used make yourself feel better.

I will say this from my 25 years of coaching high school/middle school basketball. As a program you have to be who you are. ISU is who they are, and KSU is who they are, and both have worked to a bit of success. I also know this, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to play a down and dirty, grind it out style of defense, and then turn around and play a loosy-goosy, free-wheeling style of offense. It is just very difficult to have players trying to change their mindset from one end of the floor to the other.

" but I am not going to listen to someone blow up a program no better than us like ISU and then run KSU into the ground and then pretend that you are just being honest with yourself or whatever other justification is used make yourself feel better."

This is a personal attack, and against board rules. Where have I "run KSU into the ground". You owe me an apology, or should be censured.