The force is powerful and mysterious

Discussion related to the K-State men's basketball team
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Re: The force is powerful and mysterious

Post by ToledoCat#2 » January 10th, 2019, 4:27 pm

Except for the Gooners last year with Trey Young. He was among the best shot "go-getters" and yet the Gooners didn't win nearly as much with him. I'm not saying a go-to guy isn't valuable. Just that it's no guarantee of a team winning. Yep, how I wish for another Beaz to show up to play in the Bram for at least 3 years.

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Post by pulitzerdave » January 10th, 2019, 10:26 pm

Gorhoops wrote:
January 10th, 2019, 11:54 am
All I've ever asked for from fans was to be fair and balanced. I have no problem with joey or any fan disliking the offense, but I do expect for fans to then also give credit where it is due in other aspects. If you are going to rip Weber for the offense, you do have to give him credit for this being a pretty good defensive team, and you have to give credit for the fact that in the last two games when the shooting was horrid, they did not quit, they fought and clawed and scratched and found a way to fight back. That is a huge part of coaching as well. The coach has a lot more control of the defense and the effort and attitude of his team than he does whether the ball goes in or not. Offenses are often personal preference. I'm not a fan of how our guys run motion either, but Weber is a motion guy, so he coaches it. But I do like hard-nosed defense and I do like teams that never quit, so for that I give Weber credit. Fans can absolutely be critical, but also need to be fair. If you rip the recruiting because the Bigs did nothing last night, you must credit the recruiting for finding Barry Brown and Mike McGuirl. To many times fans just rip and don't give credit where due.
Gor, I like your post, but would like to add my own perspective. Weber should get credit for finding guards that fit his offense, as he has done at all three of his coaching stints. And in the case of his best seasons at Illinois, he didn't recruit those players, but coached them up. So he gets major credit for that. But to have a complete basketball team, you must also identify, recruit and coach up the players that play the two important positions inside. Aside from Dean Wade, I don't think Weber has done that. In fact, I'm not real sure he knows how such players actually fit into his system. Maybe that's the problem. Also, how difficult is it to convince bigger players to come play in a guard oriented offense?

Also, unrelated to your post, I think a coach does influence shooting - to the extent that he allows them to shoot and have a freed up mind to shoot. That comes from creating a nurturing environment for shooting, whether that's telling players not to worry about missing, or not jerking them from a game for missing, or something as simple as giving them a book to bolster their confidence.

I really dislike the excuse that "well, the coach (Bruce Weber, et. all) can't make baskets because he's sitting on the sidelines". That's a cop out for a coach with a poor shooting team, and lets him off the hook. I believe, like I said, that it's a coaches responsibility to not only find good shooters in the recruiting process, but to foster an atmosphere that allows good shooting. This does not mean that Weber is a bad offensive coach, it just means that maybe there are always things to learn, and ways to make your team better, even as a veteran coach.
These users liked pulitzerdave for the post (total 2):
PurpleOnWhite (January 10th, 2019, 10:38 pm) • kswildcat (January 11th, 2019, 11:00 am)

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Post by learnin » January 11th, 2019, 1:55 am

For years, I've expressed my concern about Weber's substitution patterns and whether or not it is conducive for confidence. I noticed, in the WV game during the first half, that Neal-Williams was playing a pretty good game defensively and offense with great energy and quickness. He found himself open in the corner and missed the shot. Immediately, someone motioned for a player to go in and take his place. I've seen that quite a bit during the Weber and Martin tenure. Personally, I wouldn't take a person out after they miss a shot unless it was a bad shot for that player. Of course, many young players come in never seeing a shot they didn't like so a coach has to reign that attitude in at times. The bottom line, once again, is balance. Coaching is not an easy job. You have to teach without destroying confidence. It's easier to set on the sidelines and say, after the fact, "he should have done this or that."

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Post by Hypeman » January 11th, 2019, 7:38 am

gdgjr78 wrote:
January 10th, 2019, 1:38 pm
KsJoey wrote:
January 10th, 2019, 12:38 pm
I completely agree that you should give credit where credit is due, just as criticism where criticism is due... and I feel like i've done that a lot over the years. Weber is a high-end defensive coach. For KSU to do what they do, especially like undersized at the 4 and having no rim protector is pretty crazy. My issue has always been on the offensive end and largely because of the motion that relies moreso on shots from mid-long range than many others. And even though we go through periods where we shoot well, overall, mid-long range shots are not a strength of this team. I envision an offense where Dean isn't out screening for guards so often, where we have more slashing to the basket, more set plays(like after T/O but during the game), overall, just more shooting in the paint. Overall, just let jumpshots. I don't know exactly what offense that is, but there are a few that I feel would give us better shooting %.
Everytime our guys jack up contested jump shots a step or two inside the 3 point line early in the shot clock I just shake my head. Even if those shots go in that is poor basketball and if your offense is designed to get those kind of looks your offensive philosophy is flawed imo.
I’m not aware of any offense that promotes contested mid-range shots over layups? What offense is that?

Now at times players have to pull up and hit the 10 footer because getting all the way to the rim is unlikely in real basketball. The fact that Barry does it is a credit to his remarkable quickness.

We don’t get a lot down low because we don’t have a lot of confidence in our post players. Thus, we don’t throw it in very often. When we do it is usually a turnover.

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Pick 'Em

Post by tmcats » January 11th, 2019, 1:01 pm

mike plays with more intensity on both ends of the court than some of the starters. i trust that will be rewarded. mawien remains an enigma.
"There ain't anybody stoppin' our ass!" CK

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Post by wazucat » January 11th, 2019, 1:17 pm

The head coach deserves credit when his team wins and he deserves blame when his team loses. Winning will silence Bruce Weber's critics, nothing else will. Jim Wooldridge was a really nice guy and his teams played hard for him but his teams could not win, winning is all that matters.

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Post by xtrawildcat » January 11th, 2019, 2:07 pm

tmcats wrote:
January 11th, 2019, 1:01 pm
mike plays with more intensity on both ends of the court than some of the starters. i trust that will be rewarded. mawien remains an enigma.
Regarding Mawien in this game. Pretty simple. He got in foul trouble. First foul called on him was when he tipped in a missed shot at the start of the game. I didn't see the foul after watching it a number of times. If we don't want him to go for offensive rebounds he could have avoided that foul but he did, made the follow and got called for a non foul.
Second foul Mawien slid over to provide help defense against West. Had hands straight up in the air and got called for bumping him. Really ticky tack but again Mawien made the right play.

He played 6 minutes total int aht game due to foul trouble so I find it hard to judge him.

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Post by Wyldkatz » January 11th, 2019, 2:15 pm

Thought at least 3 of Mawiens fouls were bad calls and if he was a "name" big they wouldnt have been called. Even a couple of Loves were very questionable. Stockard on the other hand was 5 legitimate fouls. He plays alot more with his arms and body than his feet.

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Post by Ksustephens » January 11th, 2019, 2:46 pm

Yeah why do teams even have coaches? - just let the players play - spend money on acquiring players not coaches they are useless - jfc smh
KsJoey wrote:
January 10th, 2019, 9:23 am
The offense wasn't the reason the Cats started shooting lights out. The coaching wasn't the reason the Cats suddenly started making points(except for designed plays). The shooting just got contagious. We may never see another Kstate game where the players went from "can't make a bucket" to "can't miss a bucket", quite like that. I'm happy to get the win. I'm happy for the players and hopefully they can build off of it. But the run wasn't the result of Weber or this offense. I don't believe in a "Force" with sports, but I do believe in confidence, momentum and contagious shooting. The guys just hot super hot after being super cold.

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Post by Gorhoops » January 11th, 2019, 3:32 pm

wazucat wrote:
January 11th, 2019, 1:17 pm
The head coach deserves credit when his team wins and he deserves blame when his team loses. Winning will silence Bruce Weber's critics, nothing else will. Jim Wooldridge was a really nice guy and his teams played hard for him but his teams could not win, winning is all that matters.

That is a fine and dandy attitude, but the problem is many, many fans just never tend to get around to the giving credit part, and if they do, it is usually with some reluctance or some "reasons" why a coach won, like that the opponent was over-rated or whatever. The blame comes real easy for many, but the credit sure seems hard for most.

If what you say is true, how come there was so much consternation about Weber and the offense, etc after Wednesdays game?? It was a win, but many continued to gripe and moan about the first 25 minutes??

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