Reflections

[pulitzerdavid]

I agree to some extent with some of the OP's points. I liked Bruce Weber and was strongly rooting for him to succeed and continue as our coach.
He had to deal with a lot of adversity, such competing with KU even though they were cheating like crazy.
He was plagued by injuries (boots galore, although I still think there was some correctible reason behind this, no one could be that unlucky).
He had players like Love and Shadd here, seemingly forever, taking scholarship spots and contributing nothing.

However, lest we forget, KSU was EXTREMELY patient with Bruce Weber, as they should have been given his accomplishments like conference championships. He had multiple roster teardowns and rebuilds. Toward the end he was given a goal of getting to the NCAA tournament, a low bar, but didn't get it done.
It was time for KSU and its fans to move on.

And how many millions did KSU pay Bruce Weber over the years? Much more than most (or all) of us will make in our lifetimes.

So I don't feel sorry for Bruce Weber. This is a big boy business, he was given many chances to achieve modest goals but did not, so he was asked to leave. I have no problem with any of that.

If Tang is not making the tournament on a regular basis or is failing to achieve other goals given to him by the AD, then he will be held accountable as well.

Agreed, Weber needed to go. No argument there. What I didn't agree with is the way Weber was lampooned by small-mined fans on this forum. They had no appreciation for the good that he did do. Now they have Tang, who many say is a better coach than Weber. Based on what? Weber's last three years, or his first two? These Tang-touters cherry-pick what seasons they judge Weber by. I say Weber has the better first two seasons. We'll see how it shakes out going forward.

Remember, this has been brought up by Tang-touters, not by me. Tang had a failed season that is far worse than any of Weber's first two. KSU finished in the bottom half of the conference. Flaming out in the first round of the NIT is failure. KSU didn't even get one of the 16 NIT seeds. That tells you how far they were from making the NCAA Tournament, despite Tang's rant after the ISU blowout.

[pulitzerdavid]

Squeaky/squealing Bruce is gone.
Rabid F-bomb and GD ladened Marting is Long gone.


Tang is the best coach we have had in a very long time. Get over the past. Moving on to a bright future. #EMAW!!!

Tang bombed this year ... simple as that. Bottom half of the conference, and a flame out in the NIT. And he's the best coach in a very long time!

[SCKSCat]

Woodridge was a nice man.

[KSUbetcha]

Squeaky/squealing Bruce is gone.
Rabid F-bomb and GD ladened Marting is Long gone.


Tang is the best coach we have had in a very long time. Get over the past. Moving on to a bright future. #EMAW!!!

Tang bombed this year ... simple as that. Bottom half of the conference, and a flame out in the NIT. And he's the best coach in a very long time!

You have the right to express your frustration with Coach Tang. There's a lot of people who are disappointed & I'm sure that includes Coach Tang. But I believe that Coach Tang has more than earned a pass for this year's team. I mean aren't we less than a year removed from nearly going to the Final Four his first year?

I'm sure Coach Tang thought he'd have Tomlin & Glover at the beginning of the season for the Big 12 Conference slate of games. If those two players had been available, I'd be willing to wager a not so small sum that we have at least 2-3 more wins. Tomlin himself pumped in 14-20+ points alone for Memphis a couple times, and his contributions won multiple games for them. Having an additional scorer like Tomlin would've probably turned the tide for a few wins that ended up as losses this year. But unfortunately his actions resulted in him not playing for KSU this year. I'm sure that ADGT doesn't even see a flicker of warmth under Coach Tang's chair, after two seasons. So I would not even try and speculate on something as ludacris as wondering about the MBB Coaching job this season. Period. Full Stop.

[Snyder]

Thank GOD Learnin and Dave are back to help us see their truth! Lol. I quit reading the novel 2 sentences in. You can PREACh all you want, but I FAIThFully believe Tang is a better basketball coach than Weber.

I’m dying of laughter while in percent agreement. Not for one second did Weber enter my mind all season until reading the post by his fans. K-State basketball is positioned nicely as long as Coach Tang is in Manhattan.

[pharaohcat]

Compare Tang's NCAA tournament wins after 2 years to those of Weber in 10 years! Compare Martin's NCAA wins after 5 years to those of Weber in 10 years! Give Weber credit for the 2 B-12 championships but also for the NCAA flame outs! All 3 had elite 8 seasons!

[stlcatfan]

If we are going back to former coaches, I think Coach Huggins deserves a huge amount of credit for pulling our basketball program off the mat, even though he was here for only one year.

Frank Martin was able to use Huggins' recruits (along with some good ones of his own) to continue the success. Still, though, I didn't care for Frank's antics as well the way he operated very close to the line of NCAA rules. I still think if it had not been for Currie being so anal about NCAA compliance, we would have had the NCAA sniffing around our program because of the way Frank did things.

I liked Coach Weber and was happy with him for running a clean program, not to mention the two conference titles and the Elite 8. I was one of those who was in favor of giving Weber one more year when others were demanding him be fired after two straight losing seasons. After the third one, I felt it was time for a change. He did seem to be snake bit with injuries to key players, not to mention the Foster fiasco.

I'm very happy that we hired Coach Tang. Like Weber, he has good values and runs a clean program. Yes, he has made mistakes, but he is still growing himself as a new head coach. I like how he and his staff work to instill good values in the players and truly care for them as future fathers, husbands, and leaders in the community. He has also been snake bit with some issues involving key players, but it is too early to be overly critical of Coach Tang. He has already given us an Elite 8 and back-to-back winning seasons. Let's see what next season brings before we pass too harsh of a judgment on him.

[learnin]

Fans are disappointed with this season. And Tang is being criticized by fans for not addressing the tov issue and for signing Glover because he had a meniscus injury last year. Fans are rightfully looking at next years roster and will be judging Tang before the season by how he fills it. And they will be evaluating how Tang coaches that roster and judging him on wins and losses.

I'll give you a break for attempting to compare Weber's treatment with Tang's during their first two years. Perhaps you weren't posting during 2012 on the old scout forum among others. If, however, you are cognizant of how things were when Weber arrived in Manhattan, your comparison is quite extraordinary. I've read all of the media articles and social media posts about this year's team. Yes, they lament the chronic turnovers and sloppy play of this team. I've heard plenty of comments about Carter being a turnover machine. I've heard a few fans talk about the poor offensive schemes usually made by fans who did not appreciate Weber's treatment. I've seen Fitz sigh and roll his eyes when talking about the play of this team, but he never mentions Tang in the same breath. It is always mitigated by the fact that Coach Tang lost two terrific players. Bruce was sentenced for being a bad coach before his plane touched down and every bad result was laid at his feet by a sizeable portion of the fan base.

You brought up Weber when everybody else long ago moved on. SoYou will have to remind me when Weber lost two starter calibre players for the entire season with the season already being underway. .[Kam Stokes did not have a knee injury he did not recover from. He injured it his freshman year halfway through the Big 12 season and was recovered for his sophomore year. Started 35 games that year and averaged 33 minutes that year. He missed about 10 games his junior year with a foot injury. We went to the elite 8 that year..

Right off the bat, Dean Wade being hampered for several years was greater than the loss of Tomlin and Glover for one year. Secondly, I can appreciate the way you worded that challenge. "Two starter caliber players for the entire season with the season already underway." With that sleight of hand, you eliminated the negative effect of DJ being hobbled for multiple years; Dean being hobbled for multiple years: Bradford being hobbled for most of the year with Covid pneumonia, etc., etc.

Kam Stokes did not have a knee injury he did not recover from. He injured it his freshman year halfway through the Big 12 season and was recovered for his sophomore year. Started 35 games that year and averaged 33 minutes that year. He missed about 10 games his junior year with a foot injury. We went to the elite 8 that year. Kam Stokes did not have a knee injury he did not recover from. .

I remember, distinctly, that Kam did not regain the mojo he displayed during his freshman year before the knee injury. When he came back his sophomore year from the knee injury, he did not have the speed and reckless abandon he had as a freshman. He was playing more carefully because of that trauma. So, the knee injury affected his first two years. You are correct in pointing out that it was a foot injury, which sidelined him for 10 games during his junior year. So, three of Kam's four years were hampered by two injuries.

Weber and more importantly, his players rightfully received a lot of "if only" commentary over the foot injuries to Dean Wade and DJ.

I agree. A portion of the fan base did respect Weber. I'm talking about the sizeable portion who thought he was a loser before he arrived. I'm talking about the media sucking up to this portion of that fan base because they sensed that portion represented and, for ratings, pandered to them.

Finally, a reminder so you can move on with the rest of us. Weber finished his last three years with losing records so he was replaced. Tang will receive the same treatment if he has three losing seasons in a row.

I couldn't agree with you more. This is your best statement. Yes, the fan base will turn on Tang if he has three years without a tournament appearance. But that was a big part of the point I was trying to make, no? Right now, 95% of the fan base loves and respects Tang. From the git go, Weber was faced with a split fan base. Half wanted to see him fail. The other half wanted to see him succeed. This is why, as I pointed out, Tomlin's departure was blamed, by a large portion of the fan base and 100% of the social media, on President Linton. When Weber lost a player, the media and sizeable portion of the fan base, laid it on Weber's shoulders. As a result of this leniency, Tang will have a better chance of not sustaining a three-year lack of success. This is especially true in the transfer portal era.

[learnin]

REFLECTIONS
After a season of watching of watching Coach Tang and his team, I think it's time for reflection and some soul searching. Coach insists that this is all about improving ourselves in this game we call life. Therefore, this season's disappointment is a prime opportunity for growth.

1. It don't come easy: Show me a blue blood and I'll show you a program that cheats or stacks the deck in its favor. Bill Self's a good coach but this year proves that the deck has been stacked in his favor. Self's advantage took a hit by the looming investigation, NIL and transfer portal. We see how easy it is, even for a good coach, to struggle when things are even. I hope, after this year, K-State fandom begins to have a new appreciation for Bruce Weber and the huge challenge he faced coaching in Manhattan.
2. Crazy faith is crazy: The 700 Club mentality must cease. The prophecies must cease. I am dismayed that K-State media, and fans, have failed to point out the obvious. Faith, by itself, will never lead to success or championships. Faith, and in this sense, I mean confidence, joined with hard work, skill, and a good measure of luck, CAN lead to a championship. This silly, over the top rhetoric must stop for the good of all concerned. When one stops to think for a minute, they will admit that even Coach betrays the silliness of crazy faith. He pandered to the students so that they would fill Bramlage; he works the refs about as much as Huggins; he asked the fans to pack Bramlage and be so obnoxious that Baylor would never want to come back; he visited Coach Prime in order to see how he could market the brand and he proclaimed, in front of his current players, "we need dudes!" Obviously, Coach knows there are a good number of things that one must do in order to be successful thereby denying crazy faith.
3. Coach is off the hook: In his second year, Weber lost one of the best point guards in the nation. A good point guard is critical to success. Weber caught hell for not being able to keep Angel in Manhattan when it was obvious that he left to get paid. In his third year, Weber's talented sophomore decided to smoke and party after he achieved fame. Once again, Weber was at fault. He was criticized for mishandling Marcus Foster. This year, Tang loses a player for disciplinary reasons. The player was disciplined over the summer and then found himself in trouble with the law a few months later. He is dismissed from the program. Was it Tang's fault? No. The K-State media, and fans, crucified the university president. Coach Tang was guiding the troubled student athlete in the best possible way, we were told, but the university president interfered and stopped what would have been another miracle. One coach gets the blame for turnover while the other is pitied.
4. A tale of two coaches: In his first year, Bruce Weber won the first conference championship in 3 decades. He lost in the first round of the tournament and the backlash was fierce. The conference championship gave him very little, if any, surplus good will. In his second year, he makes the tournament once again after many fans predicted a disaster after Angel left. In the tournament, Weber draws Kentucky because it took Kentucky 2/3 of the year to find its mojo. Weber loses by six points to the National Championship runner-up. Again, Weber is excoriated by the K-State media and many fans. In his first year, Jerome Tang goes to the elite 8. This, evidently, provided him with a surplus of good will. In his second year, Tang failed to make the tournament. No criticism. The criticism is directed at the university president and the FORCE for taking Glover with an injury. One coach produced a conference championship and two NCAA appearances during his first two years and is roasted by K-State media and many fans. The second coach produces an elite 8 and one tournament bid in two years. Social media is pleading for understanding and support.
5. The force is real: The randomness of intangibles........the things we cannot control. All through the Weber years I was ridiculed for mentioning that the force was unkind...very unkind to Coach Weber. For the most part, fans were having none of it. Bruce needed to recruit better; he needed a better strength coach; he needed to do a better job of retaining players. Weber coached one year with the transfer portal in effect, and it came within a hair of saving his job. The transfer portal has negatives because you might lose good players. On the other hand, the transfer portal provides coaches with a prime opportunity to keep from having to build a team from scratch whenever seniors graduate, players get injured or transfer. If coach Tang had to coach the old-fashioned way of recruiting freshmen, you have to admit that his first two seasons would have been bad unless, of course, Nijel would have remained. So, let's consider the force and see if we now have more believers. The transfer portal brought Marquis Nowell to Manhattan, but Covid struck and wiped out half the team, and coaching staff, for the first 4 conference games of the season. Intangibles. Bradford gets Covid pneumonia. Let's continue. Angel leaves for money. Foster decides to party. DJ Johnson nurses a foot injury his last two years. Dean nurses a foot injury throughout most of his K-State career and doesn't even get to play in last two tournaments. Kam Stokes goes down with knee injury and is hampered by it rest of career. Multiple bigs reporting with foot injuries.

p.s. By now, you're probably asking, "Why is learnin beating this dead horse again? Weber is in the past and we've moved on." My answer is simple. As I read through K-State social media, one thing has stood way out. Jerome Tang lost two of his starting five and this is why he did not make the tournament. That's fine. I agree. The force stinks at times. But, if it wasn't a valid excuse back when, it's not a valid excuse today.

Two different coaches. Two different styles. If Tang's religiosity is your biggest problem with him, it is possible you are exclusively using that lens to be overly critical. I will echo the point made in a previous post: After losing two starting players for the season before the first game, I think Tang did a pretty good job.

It has nothing to do with religion. I'm pointing out the danger of its misuse.

[learnin]

I agree to some extent with some of the OP's points. I liked Bruce Weber and was strongly rooting for him to succeed and continue as our coach.
He had to deal with a lot of adversity, such competing with KU even though they were cheating like crazy.
He was plagued by injuries (boots galore, although I still think there was some correctible reason behind this, no one could be that unlucky).
He had players like Love and Shadd here, seemingly forever, taking scholarship spots and contributing nothing.

However, lest we forget, KSU was EXTREMELY patient with Bruce Weber, as they should have been given his accomplishments like conference championships. He had multiple roster teardowns and rebuilds. Toward the end he was given a goal of getting to the NCAA tournament, a low bar, but didn't get it done.
It was time for KSU and its fans to move on.

And how many millions did KSU pay Bruce Weber over the years? Much more than most (or all) of us will make in our lifetimes.

So I don't feel sorry for Bruce Weber. This is a big boy business, he was given many chances to achieve modest goals but did not, so he was asked to leave. I have no problem with any of that.

If Tang is not making the tournament on a regular basis or is failing to achieve other goals given to him by the AD, then he will be held accountable as well.

Powercat, I totally agree with you that the University was more than fair with Bruce. He was given a fair chance and had to go after that third bad season. I do, however, feel sorry for Weber because I think the deck was stacked against him from the start because he played fairly and had heavy pressure each and every year to succeed. Every reader here should consider what Coach Tang has done since coming to Manhattan. He set up the purple couch; he did the Wabash with the students, etc.etc. All of these things were done in order to market the brand and entice the whole fan base to get feverishly behind the team. Why? He did so because he knows it is so much easier to produce a winning program if the fan base is 100% on board.