Combine Invites

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AJcat7755
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Re: Combine Invites

Post by AJcat7755 » February 10th, 2020, 9:29 pm

Michael Sam came out right before the draft, and still got drafted in the 7th round. Frantz > Sam in terms of NFL talent. And this is several years later, and Frantz didn't do it right before the draft so the news has had some time to sit. Will it have an affect, sure, but maybe not as much as his talent.

Having said that, there is a list and none of them were out while they played in the NFL. Sam never made it past a practice squad, while others came out after their were in the NFL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexua ... n_football

Hypeman
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Post by Hypeman » February 11th, 2020, 6:06 am

epicsnyder wrote:
February 10th, 2020, 8:37 pm
Opensource wrote:
February 10th, 2020, 8:01 pm

How would you know?
I have eyes. And a brain.
Your eyes and brain can see into other people’s brains?

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Post by wild@nite » February 11th, 2020, 9:31 am

AJcat7755 wrote:
February 10th, 2020, 9:29 pm
Michael Sam came out right before the draft, and still got drafted in the 7th round. Frantz > Sam in terms of NFL talent. And this is several years later, and Frantz didn't do it right before the draft so the news has had some time to sit. Will it have an affect, sure, but maybe not as much as his talent.

Having said that, there is a list and none of them were out while they played in the NFL. Sam never made it past a practice squad, while others came out after their were in the NFL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexua ... n_football
Frantz>Sam in terms of NFL talent? That is fact? Sam was the SEC defensive player of the year and a consensus All American. Yes, he was a only 6'2", but with that athleticism, he could have lost 15 lbs and been a backer, imo. Teams didn't mess with it because of his orientation. How many other SEC defensive players of the year would teams not tinker with for at least a year or two before giving up on them. It was obvious that he had to be head and shoulders better or he wasn't making it. Frantz is big and has decent feet, but I've seen nothing to make me think he is a slam dunk NFL talent. Maybe you know something I don't, but I thought Sam would stick in the NFL, for at least 4-5 years, and I'm betting he would have if decisions were made on talent alone. Same with Frantz. When he gets his shot, if all things are close to being even with other players, he won't stick long, unfortunately.

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Post by JOKKO » February 11th, 2020, 10:35 am

I won't pretend to be in the know at all on the issue of Frantz being drafted or making the NFL. I do think that Frantz & Sam are probably pretty close in "talent level" regarding NFL. Kind of tough to judge the 2 different positions. Sam got most of his stats against the ooc & bottom end SEC teams (doesn't mean he didn't deserve SEC player of the year). His skills just didn't translate to the NFL.

Kids these days don't really seem to care on the orientation thing. It is amazing to me that the team knew about Frantz for a whole year before the public knew. That is a tribute to his teammates respecting his privacy. Most have forgotten about it because we really have not heard much about it the last couple years. Heck, I had forgot which player it was till i looked it up late in the season.

I am sure most NFL teams have a gay player on the roster right now. Their teammates might also know about it while not letting it out. I think most players now look at it like, "Can you ball? Can you help us win?". Good teammates that can help a team win will be welcome with open arms in 2020 no matter their orientation.

From a upper management POV, i think they will look at the bottom line trying to find contributors on the cheap. Rookie free agents and late round draft picks are cheap!
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Hypeman (February 11th, 2020, 10:46 am)

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Post by wild@nite » February 11th, 2020, 10:49 am

JOKKO wrote:
February 11th, 2020, 10:35 am
I won't pretend to be in the know at all on the issue of Frantz being drafted or making the NFL. I do think that Frantz & Sam are probably pretty close in "talent level" regarding NFL. Kind of tough to judge the 2 different positions. Sam got most of his stats against the ooc & bottom end SEC teams (doesn't mean he didn't deserve SEC player of the year). His skills just didn't translate to the NFL.

Kids these days don't really seem to care on the orientation thing. It is amazing to me that the team knew about Frantz for a whole year before the public knew. That is a tribute to his teammates respecting his privacy. Most have forgotten about it because we really have not heard much about it the last couple years. Heck, I had forgot which player it was till i looked it up late in the season.

I am sure most NFL teams have a gay player on the roster right now. Their teammates might also know about it while not letting it out. I think most players now look at it like, "Can you ball? Can you help us win?". Good teammates that can help a team win will be welcome with open arms in 2020 no matter their orientation.

From a upper management POV, i think they will look at the bottom line trying to find contributors on the cheap. Rookie free agents and late round draft picks are cheap!
You're right about kids. Most don't care. The problem is.... They aren't making the decisions. Unless the kid is an every down contributor, the old farts in ownership aren't going to keep what they view as a distraction, unless it's a special situation.

Also.... "Sam got most of his stats against the ooc & bottom end SEC teams.".
This is true as well, but the SEC coaches know how they had to game plan and double him. That's where he earned his accolades. Stats aren't the tell all. It's how much did he have to be accounted for.

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Post by tmcats » February 11th, 2020, 11:18 am

i really have no clue. but it's noteworthy that mayor pete is not a favorite in the african-american community for a reason other than policy.
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Post by AJcat7755 » February 11th, 2020, 11:26 am

wild@nite wrote:
February 11th, 2020, 9:31 am
AJcat7755 wrote:
February 10th, 2020, 9:29 pm
Michael Sam came out right before the draft, and still got drafted in the 7th round. Frantz > Sam in terms of NFL talent. And this is several years later, and Frantz didn't do it right before the draft so the news has had some time to sit. Will it have an affect, sure, but maybe not as much as his talent.

Having said that, there is a list and none of them were out while they played in the NFL. Sam never made it past a practice squad, while others came out after their were in the NFL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexua ... n_football
Frantz>Sam in terms of NFL talent? That is fact? Sam was the SEC defensive player of the year and a consensus All American. Yes, he was a only 6'2", but with that athleticism, he could have lost 15 lbs and been a backer, imo. Teams didn't mess with it because of his orientation. How many other SEC defensive players of the year would teams not tinker with for at least a year or two before giving up on them. It was obvious that he had to be head and shoulders better or he wasn't making it. Frantz is big and has decent feet, but I've seen nothing to make me think he is a slam dunk NFL talent. Maybe you know something I don't, but I thought Sam would stick in the NFL, for at least 4-5 years, and I'm betting he would have if decisions were made on talent alone. Same with Frantz. When he gets his shot, if all things are close to being even with other players, he won't stick long, unfortunately.
College production != NFL projections. Sam was not a good fit for the NFL. Sam was too small to be a NFL DE, and too slow to be a LB that didn't fit most NFL teams schemes. His athleticism tested very poorly as well.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/205 ... -nfl-draft

"The Journal Sentinel polled 21 scouts with national responsibilities asking what round, if any, they would be comfortable selecting Sam.

Three said fifth round. Three said sixth round. Three said seventh round. Five said they would sign him as a free agent. Seven said they wouldn't sign him as a free agent.

Three scouts from clubs using the 4-3 defense said emphatically that Sam didn't fit their scheme. Conversely, two scouts from teams using the 3-4 defense said emphatically that Sam didn't fit their scheme."

"He's clearly a 3-4 linebacker, at best, because of his ability to get off the edge and rush the passer, but without the versatility to do anything else, it's hard to see how he fits on a roster. "

"Sam's upside in the NFL is limited because of his size and lack of a natural position, but there's always room for an edge-rusher on a roster. He has to convince teams that his power will play against NFL offensive linemen after being drafted. "

"The best thing that can be said about Sam is he was dominant in the SEC for a season, but prior to 2013 he had just 9.5 sacks in three seasons with Missouri."

His skills on the field and at the combine are far more the reason he wasn't drafted then his sexuality.

It's must easier for a OL to find a spot in the NFL though because there is more versatility to move along the OL and the position translates easier from college to NFL in terms of size and athleticism. I'm not saying Frantz was a better college player then Sam, but he might have a better shot at playing in the NFL, drafted or FA, because of the position he plays. Not to mention that at KSU, OL are taught multiple positions as well as KSU history of OL in the NFL. Frantz may not get drafted, but he will get a shot on a practice squad to make a team at the least and in theory, has a better shot of sticking in the NFL then Sam, who didn't have a fit in the NFL.
Last edited by AJcat7755 on February 11th, 2020, 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by wild@nite » February 11th, 2020, 11:31 am

You said Frantz's NFL talent is greater than Sam's and I'm not saying I necessarily disagree, because Sam didn't stick long, but based on what? Frantz didn't even get invited to the combine and you just posted the following pertaining to what scouts said about Sam.

"Three said fifth round. Three said sixth round. Three said seventh round. Five said they would sign him as a free agent. Seven said they wouldn't sign him as a free agent."

Is anyone, anywhere predicting Frantz to get picked in the 5th round?

I'm just trying to figure out why you think Frantz is a greater NFL talent? Because he has the right size? He does, but I think he's at or near his ceiling, based on kind of leveling out, imo. I hope I'm wrong. He's a great kid and I'd love to see him get a big fat check.

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Post by AJcat7755 » February 11th, 2020, 11:51 am

wild@nite wrote:
February 11th, 2020, 11:31 am
Ok, well, I'm not spending that much time, but Frantz didn't even get invited to the combine. Just saying....
On average, around 40-50 players each year get drafted, that didn't get invited to the combine. That equates to about 15% of the drafted players that didn't go to the combine.

It's not like the Combine is the only way to show a players skills. Not including college tape, Frantz just finished the College Gridiron Showcase and is receiving interest from that and has the Hula Bowl upcoming, which is an all-star game of some of the top NFL prospects. He will also have his own scouting event at KSU to run the exact same drills at the NFL combine. Many players that even get invited to the combine don't participate in drills and prefer to do them at their own college. The NFL combine invite is a media event, and is not the end all for scouts.

There are on average about 3500 college players a year that are draft ready, only 7% get drafted.

And that is only looking at drafted players. As mentioned, Frantz like many other KSU players, can still make a team via a UDFA. In 2017, looking at players that played 40% of snaps, 133 were UDFA. That is more UDFA as regular contributors then players the 5th, 6th and 7th rounds combined and more then any single draft round except the 1st.

Not even looking at regular contributors and looking at a full roster, UDFA make up 30% of NFL rosters.

Sam was "in the NFL" for 1 year where he spent time on 2 practice squads. He tried to go to the NFL Veteran Combine after that 1st year and his measurable were still terrible. He made $89,996 in NFL. Frantz will make more $$ in the NFL then Sam did, despite not being invited to the NFL combine.
Last edited by AJcat7755 on February 11th, 2020, 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by AJcat7755 » February 11th, 2020, 11:59 am

wild@nite wrote:
February 11th, 2020, 11:31 am
You said Frantz's NFL talent is greater than Sam's and I'm not saying I necessarily disagree, because Sam didn't stick long, but based on what? Frantz didn't even get invited to the combine and you just posted the following pertaining to what scouts said about Sam.

"Three said fifth round. Three said sixth round. Three said seventh round. Five said they would sign him as a free agent. Seven said they wouldn't sign him as a free agent."

Is anyone, anywhere predicting Frantz to get picked in the 5th round?

I'm just trying to figure out why you think Frantz is a greater NFL talent? Because he has the right size? He does, but I think he's at or near his ceiling, based on kind of leveling out, imo. I hope I'm wrong. He's a great kid and I'd love to see him get a big fat check.
https://www.outsports.com/2020/1/9/2105 ... ive-tackle

Feel free to read for yourself, but it has a lot of the same things I just said.

"Ultimately we’ll put Frantz’s chances of being drafted at about 70%"

But being drafted is insignificant as UDFA actually play more then the late picks.

"players drafted in the fourth to seventh rounds of the NFL Draft have no clear path to an NFL regular-season roster"

This is about making it in the NFL, not about being drafted.

"We’ll give Frantz a 99.5% chance of being signed by an NFL team by late May, whether he’s drafted or not."

"it’s hard to fathom a situation where at least one team doesn’t sign him after the Draft. "

There is a lot of other great information in this article you should read which will open your mind and break down a lot of misconceptions, stereotypes, and exaggerations being presented.
Last edited by AJcat7755 on February 11th, 2020, 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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