College Football Broken

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ToledoCat#2
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Re: College Football Broken

Post by ToledoCat#2 » January 21st, 2020, 3:27 pm

Truly, there is no way to have a football playoff that doesn't extend the season way too long into the new year. Frankly, I'd like to go back to a system of no playoffs and just post-season bowl games. Our arguments today with a playoff system accomplish no more than a simple newspaper/coach selection system of the nation's top team.

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Post by AJcat7755 » January 21st, 2020, 5:04 pm

Hypeman wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 2:47 pm
hilltopwildcat wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 2:25 pm


Which P5 would schedule them and would they even consider playing UCF at their place? System is still broken.
Exactly! I recall about 8 or 10 years ago when we ponied up like a million bucks to cancel a game against a mountain west team that looked like the might be too good. We paid to get out of that game then found the weakest possible FCS opponent we could find and paid them to play us.

It’s much like the KSU, KU, WSU basketball issue. WSU is not as good as KSU or KU (according to the two schools), but KSU and KU won’t play them so we will never find out. Thank you NCAA for setting it up so we could find out a few years ago.

Look, OU player the big 12 schedule and even lost a game this year and didn’t get left out? Why should an undefeated UCF that was clearly better than a top flight SEC team he left out. It has nothing to do with who is better, it has to do with who ESPN has a contract with.
Kansas State cancelled a home/home series with Oregon in 2011/12 and Virginia Tech for 2014/16 because the Big 12 was down to 10 teams and had a 9 game conference schedule and could only have 3 OOC games. They kept Miami in 2011/12 and Auburn in 2014 and Stanford in 2016 to meet the P5 requirements. They could have kept 2 P5 games, but that is pretty rare when already playing 9 in conference. There is also no need, because more likely then not, a 1 loss Big 12 team gets into the playoffs, so there is no need for the extra risk for an additional loss. Not to mention that for KSU, who isn't likely going to the playoffs, every win is needed for a bowl.

I don't recall what Mountain West team you are referring to.

As for WSU, don't group KSU in with KU. KSU has been open to trying to play WSU as of 2017 with support from both Weber and Taylor in trying to make it happen. Marshall recently turned down the offer for a 2018 game, as his team was rebuilding on it's own. It seems both sides want to have the game when they are both ready to have a top game like that, but neither seem to hit at the same time. KU on the other hand hasn't even entertained the idea at all. That is a conversation for the basketball boards though.

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Post by Hypeman » January 21st, 2020, 8:03 pm

AJcat7755 wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 5:04 pm
Hypeman wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 2:47 pm


Exactly! I recall about 8 or 10 years ago when we ponied up like a million bucks to cancel a game against a mountain west team that looked like the might be too good. We paid to get out of that game then found the weakest possible FCS opponent we could find and paid them to play us.

It’s much like the KSU, KU, WSU basketball issue. WSU is not as good as KSU or KU (according to the two schools), but KSU and KU won’t play them so we will never find out. Thank you NCAA for setting it up so we could find out a few years ago.

Look, OU player the big 12 schedule and even lost a game this year and didn’t get left out? Why should an undefeated UCF that was clearly better than a top flight SEC team he left out. It has nothing to do with who is better, it has to do with who ESPN has a contract with.
Kansas State cancelled a home/home series with Oregon in 2011/12 and Virginia Tech for 2014/16 because the Big 12 was down to 10 teams and had a 9 game conference schedule and could only have 3 OOC games. They kept Miami in 2011/12 and Auburn in 2014 and Stanford in 2016 to meet the P5 requirements. They could have kept 2 P5 games, but that is pretty rare when already playing 9 in conference. There is also no need, because more likely then not, a 1 loss Big 12 team gets into the playoffs, so there is no need for the extra risk for an additional loss. Not to mention that for KSU, who isn't likely going to the playoffs, every win is needed for a bowl.

I don't recall what Mountain West team you are referring to.

As for WSU, don't group KSU in with KU. KSU has been open to trying to play WSU as of 2017 with support from both Weber and Taylor in trying to make it happen. Marshall recently turned down the offer for a 2018 game, as his team was rebuilding on it's own. It seems both sides want to have the game when they are both ready to have a top game like that, but neither seem to hit at the same time. KU on the other hand hasn't even entertained the idea at all. That is a conversation for the basketball boards though.
It was Fresno. They were still on the schedule from Prince’s effort to improve the schedule. I recall all the outrage over a million dollar payday to not play.

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Post by hilltopwildcat » January 21st, 2020, 11:43 pm

AJcat7755 wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 3:00 pm
hilltopwildcat wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 2:25 pm


Which P5 would schedule them and would they even consider playing UCF at their place? System is still broken.
Well obviously, there are a few they already have scheduled. And UCF doesn't need to be demanding they play at UCF, or else they won't get very many games as it is. The SOS will go up for road games to counter the weaker conference SOS.

I wonder if UF or FSU would consider bringing in UCF for a home game.
No, no and HELL NO. Not until they're sure of a win.

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Post by wild@nite » January 22nd, 2020, 7:33 am

ToledoCat#2 wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 3:27 pm
Truly, there is no way to have a football playoff that doesn't extend the season way too long into the new year. Frankly, I'd like to go back to a system of no playoffs and just post-season bowl games. Our arguments today with a playoff system accomplish no more than a simple newspaper/coach selection system of the nation's top team.
1 more game to get a true champion, garner more Nationwide interest, and strengthen the sport, is all it would take. And.... more $!!!! The FCS does this and has for years. Because of this, imo, they have the far better system.

The FBS should play 11 games, a conf title game and a 4 game, 16 team playoff. 16 total games. 1 game more than LSU played this year and you could do it in the same amount of time without the ridiculous layoff. The FCS players are student athletes too and they have no issues with it. You don't hear NDSU or James Madison, or South Dakota State whining. Why? Because it's a great system.
Why is the FBS such primadonnas on this?

This is the only sport in the world, that I know of without a true playoff. Joke.
Last edited by wild@nite on January 22nd, 2020, 9:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by hilltopwildcat » January 22nd, 2020, 9:06 am

Cutting scholarships might help balance the competition more....or maybe not. The same culprits seem to show up in FCS and D2 every year.

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Post by wild@nite » January 22nd, 2020, 9:36 am

hilltopwildcat wrote:
January 22nd, 2020, 9:06 am
Cutting scholarships might help balance the competition more....or maybe not. The same culprits seem to show up in FCS and D2 every year.
Absolutely. I've been saying this for several years. The schollies are at 85 and that is ridiculous. NFL teams play a 16 game schedule with 53, plus a 10 man practice roster. That's 63. The NCAA needs cut to 80, tops, but I'd even go to 75 if you want competitive balance. The problem is, they don't and the other problem is, the fans are content with garbage bowl games for betting.

Personally, I'd much rather have around 35-40 teams, every year, that actually have a shot at getting into a playoff, than 6-8. How would this not be better? Nah.... Just keep on keepin' on with the rich getting richer. I just don't get it at all. Why are there not multiple leaders of Universities willing to show some passion on this and take on the NCAA? It's nothing more than politics, I guess, and everybody is just complacent and happy with status quo.

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Post by AJcat7755 » January 22nd, 2020, 11:38 am

Hypeman wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 8:03 pm
AJcat7755 wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 5:04 pm


Kansas State cancelled a home/home series with Oregon in 2011/12 and Virginia Tech for 2014/16 because the Big 12 was down to 10 teams and had a 9 game conference schedule and could only have 3 OOC games. They kept Miami in 2011/12 and Auburn in 2014 and Stanford in 2016 to meet the P5 requirements. They could have kept 2 P5 games, but that is pretty rare when already playing 9 in conference. There is also no need, because more likely then not, a 1 loss Big 12 team gets into the playoffs, so there is no need for the extra risk for an additional loss. Not to mention that for KSU, who isn't likely going to the playoffs, every win is needed for a bowl.

I don't recall what Mountain West team you are referring to.

As for WSU, don't group KSU in with KU. KSU has been open to trying to play WSU as of 2017 with support from both Weber and Taylor in trying to make it happen. Marshall recently turned down the offer for a 2018 game, as his team was rebuilding on it's own. It seems both sides want to have the game when they are both ready to have a top game like that, but neither seem to hit at the same time. KU on the other hand hasn't even entertained the idea at all. That is a conversation for the basketball boards though.
It was Fresno. They were still on the schedule from Prince’s effort to improve the schedule. I recall all the outrage over a million dollar payday to not play.
Well that would make sense why I didn't find it easily as it was 12 years ago and Fresno State was in the WAC until 2012.

KSU and Fresno State had a 3 game series scheduled that was started in 2004, when Bill Snyder was still the coach. The 2nd game was played in 2007, in Ron Prince's 2nd year. The 3rd game was scheduled to be played Sept 6, 2008 when Ron Prince was still the coach and he was the one that cancelled it. Prince was trying to save his job, and Fresno State was coming off a 9-4 season and had beat KSU the last 2 times so another loss was likely. So Prince replaced the game with Montana State. Didn't matter in the end because Prince still finished 5-7 partly because of losing to a 5-7 Louisville team, which was a series that Ron Prince started in 2006 and was his "big game" of the time.

KSU was not looking to make the NC game so they needed an easier win just to try and make a bowl. Fresno State beating KSU wouldn't have helped them either. So the complaint about nobody wanting to play UCF doesn't really work because UCF beating a team like KSU in 2008 wouldn't have helped. As it turned out, Fresno State replaced the game with Rutgers, who ended up 8-5 and was a much better win for them. However Fresno State ended up 7-6 so it didn't matter anyways. Fresno State versus

That still doesn't solve the case of UCF needing to play tougher teams, because who's to say those tougher teams wouldn't do the same thing KSU did and cancel the game? UCF is already playing KSU/Rutgers levels of teams on their schedule already, but those likely aren't enough to boost their SOS as a result of a weaker conference SOS.

But as an example of how it is possible for a G5 to make the playoff, there are examples. Had their been a playoff at the time, these teams would have been in it:
2009 - Cincinnati (12-0), TCU (12-0) - They were #3 and #4 in the BCS. The next top P5 team was Florida (12-1). UF may have knocked 1 team out, but Oregon (10-2) and Ohio State (10-2) weren't going to make it in. Even Boise State (13-0) had a better shot then those 2

2010 - TCU (12-0) - It could be argued that Stanford (11-1), Wisconsin (11-1) and Ohio State (11-1) could have taken the last 2 spots in the playoff, but TCU was 3rd in the BCS. Stanford didn't win their conference,. OSU and Wisconsin were co-champions, and we see how that worked for Baylor/TCU

It is a lot harder for G5 teams to make it though. They have to go undefeated, play a tougher schedule, and have a history of sustained success. One hit wonders are likely not going to get the respect to make it in. Even KSU faces some of those challenges. Imagine if there was a playoff in 2012, KSU would have been left out because their name is not OU or UT.

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Post by hilltopwildcat » January 22nd, 2020, 3:01 pm

"But as an example of how it is possible for a G5 to make the playoff, there are examples. Had their been a playoff at the time, these teams would have been in it:
2009 - Cincinnati (12-0), TCU (12-0) - They were #3 and #4 in the BCS. The next top P5 team was Florida (12-1). UF may have knocked 1 team out, but Oregon (10-2) and Ohio State (10-2) weren't going to make it in. Even Boise State (13-0) had a better shot then those 2

2010 - TCU (12-0) - It could be argued that Stanford (11-1), Wisconsin (11-1) and Ohio State (11-1) could have taken the last 2 spots in the playoff, but TCU was 3rd in the BCS. Stanford didn't win their conference,. OSU and Wisconsin were co-champions, and we see how that worked for Baylor/TCU

It is a lot harder for G5 teams to make it though. They have to go undefeated, play a tougher schedule, and have a history of sustained success. One hit wonders are likely not going to get the respect to make it in. Even KSU faces some of those challenges. Imagine if there was a playoff in 2012, KSU would have been left out because their name is not OU or UT."

Great information but do you REALLLY think that there wouldn't have been some manipulation of the numbers to slide them down farther? I'm no so sure they would have made it.

I'd like to see 12 10 team conferences. 12 champions, 4 at-large for the playoffs. Set up the new conferences to be competitively balanced among the conferences with some deference to geography. So B12 minus TX schools and add MU, Nubs, IA. I know that the OSU's and UT's may win a lot but the schools in a league with them couldn't complain about not getting a shot. Divide P12 North and South and put Boise in the North. Tweak the $EC and ACC. Notre Dame gets in or gets left out. 10 teams gives 9 games with the ability to play a couple of non-cons. Match up non-champions in another game like KU vs Vandy for a 12th game. I think it's doable but it would take some work and NCAA is notable for pushing the EASY button.

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Post by AJcat7755 » January 22nd, 2020, 5:39 pm

hilltopwildcat wrote:
January 22nd, 2020, 3:01 pm
"But as an example of how it is possible for a G5 to make the playoff, there are examples. Had their been a playoff at the time, these teams would have been in it:
2009 - Cincinnati (12-0), TCU (12-0) - They were #3 and #4 in the BCS. The next top P5 team was Florida (12-1). UF may have knocked 1 team out, but Oregon (10-2) and Ohio State (10-2) weren't going to make it in. Even Boise State (13-0) had a better shot then those 2

2010 - TCU (12-0) - It could be argued that Stanford (11-1), Wisconsin (11-1) and Ohio State (11-1) could have taken the last 2 spots in the playoff, but TCU was 3rd in the BCS. Stanford didn't win their conference,. OSU and Wisconsin were co-champions, and we see how that worked for Baylor/TCU

It is a lot harder for G5 teams to make it though. They have to go undefeated, play a tougher schedule, and have a history of sustained success. One hit wonders are likely not going to get the respect to make it in. Even KSU faces some of those challenges. Imagine if there was a playoff in 2012, KSU would have been left out because their name is not OU or UT."

Great information but do you REALLLY think that there wouldn't have been some manipulation of the numbers to slide them down farther? I'm no so sure they would have made it.

I'd like to see 12 10 team conferences. 12 champions, 4 at-large for the playoffs. Set up the new conferences to be competitively balanced among the conferences with some deference to geography. So B12 minus TX schools and add MU, Nubs, IA. I know that the OSU's and UT's may win a lot but the schools in a league with them couldn't complain about not getting a shot. Divide P12 North and South and put Boise in the North. Tweak the $EC and ACC. Notre Dame gets in or gets left out. 10 teams gives 9 games with the ability to play a couple of non-cons. Match up non-champions in another game like KU vs Vandy for a 12th game. I think it's doable but it would take some work and NCAA is notable for pushing the EASY button.
In 2009, a 2 loss Oregon and Ohio State weren't going to jump both an undefeated Cincinnati and TCU. I guess technically Cincinnati was in the 8 member Big East at the time, so maybe they weren't a G5. Sagarin rankings, which at the time weighted heavily into the BCS, had TCU #4 and Cincinnati #8. Although the computer part has changed, they still look to some of them to make their picks. So it would have been really hard to leave both of them out.

In 2010, it would have been really hard to leave TCU out. If it was their first year going undefeated, then maybe, but they did it the year prior. And if it was a playoff the argument would either be that they were a playoff team the year before, or they should have been and deserve it the next year. And again, TCU game in at #4 in Sagarin so the computers liked them still. They still had 2 spots and 4 teams to fill it, so the odds were good. Wisconsin had the worst computer numbers, and then it comes down to how do they have OSU in and not Wisconsin (BU/TCU) when they are both champs with no title game.

The problem with UCF was the computers didn't like them because of their weak SOS (72 and 88 in 2017 and 2018). 2017 was their best shot, record wise, because all the teams in the playoff had 1 loss, but it had been 5 years since they were relevant and there was a winless season in between there so they didn't have a lot of "buzz" around them. 2018 they got up to 8th in the playoff rankings, but they weren't going to beat out 3 undefeated P5 teams or even 1 loss P5 champs. They would need another year like 2009, with multiple 2 loss P5 champs, in order to get in.

Speaking of Notre Dame, they just make things even more difficult because they don't have to win a conference to get in.

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