K-State vs. WVU

The defending Big XII Champions
wild@nite
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Re: K-State vs. WVU

Post by wild@nite » November 18th, 2019, 3:35 pm

Losing to WVU is embarrassing and the blame absolutely should fall on our coaching staff, but calm down. Let's let this season play out and 2020 happen for Pete's sake, then get our blood pressure up. I was extremely frustrated watching that game Saturday, but no more frustrated than I was watching wasted TO's because of getting plays in slowly, corners playing 10 yds off of WR's, and predictable QB draws, with very few adjustments and absolutely no usage of the TE by the previous staff.

CK has some things to improve upon and if he doesn't do it, then it's on him, but let's let him have a full season to get his culture going, then you absolutely have to give him at least two more recruiting classes. Anything less than that and nobody will touch this job. The only way he doesn't get a pass for 3 full seasons is if we go worse than 5-7 next year or in 2021.

Many of these posts are made by emotion. Why do you think KU is in the position they're in? Because multiple times, they tried to cut corners and not do it the right way. The right way is by recruiting freshmen, giving a coach 3-4 years to build his culture and roster, and stay the course. If you guys wanna do things the KU way, you better be prepared for a return to the garbage pile.

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Post by AJcat7755 » November 18th, 2019, 3:41 pm

MajorAppleCat wrote:
November 18th, 2019, 3:09 pm
AJcat7755 wrote:
November 18th, 2019, 2:51 pm


I don't think anyone is giving him a pass, but you have to give a coach at least 3 years to bring in their own players and see what they can do with them. The O/U was 5 wins this year by betters, so regardless of the finish, it is above what was expected. Get to 7 wins and maybe a bowl win, and that would be a successful season beyond the expectations.

Next year there will be a lot of underclassmen across the board. They will likely take a step back, but you will want to look for improvement throughout the season. If they don't make a bowl in 2020, I won't be upset, but they should be close to making one until the very end at least with a more favorable OOC schedule with Vandy at home. Would also expect a win over KU in Manhattan as a requirement.

New QB or not, 2021 should have a lot of CK's players at most positions, or at least ones that have been in the system for 2 years to learn the new playbook. 6 wins should be the bare minimum, with 3 home OOC games (even if they have Stanford) should be a good starting spot. The team should show improvement as the underclassmen start to turn to SO and JR so that 2022 and 2023 looks like years they will compete for the top of the conference with upperclassmen that CK recruited in those years.
That's giving him a pass for 2020. What about 2021 after Thompson move's on, when we have a new QB? IMO you play with the players you have. A good coach can fit players into the right system rather than wait to find players that fit in their system. (Thompson was a CK recruit before he was a Snyder recruit.) Otherwise, you will always be transitioning players in and out of the team and using that as an excuse. Quite frankly, other than the multiple formations, I haven't noticed much of a change between CK's offense and Snyder's offenses... except for the lack of the wildcat formation.

The point I initially made about discipline, I wasn't for sitting Dishon. However, if discipline had been instilled early on in the season KState would not be having the penalties and blown coverages that they are having late in the season at key times. Losing to a team that you were predicted to beat by 14 points is embarrassing. It happens (see OU), but the blame should be on coaching staff and not on the players.
Lowering the realistic expectations is not the same as giving a pass. I'm not saying he can lose all the game he wants and any fashion and he has a pass to do whatever, but fight for a bowl game till the very end and be competitive and show improvement with the younger players. If the O/U was 5 wins this year set by Vegas, setting the same bar for next year is not a pass. There is no reason KSU shouldn't win all OOC games, and beat KU. That is 4 wins right there. The question is, who else in the Big 12 can KSU beat in 2020? I would think TTU and OSU would be the most likely, maybe followed by a road game @ WVU. None of those would be easy though.

Thompson being a CK recruit is a bit of a weak argument. How many players did NDSU attempt to recruit, and how long did they recruit them? Even then, Thompson may have been a CK attempted recruit, but he has been in another system for 3 years. Which is why I also said that CK may not have all the players he recruited in year 3, but they will have been in the system to learn for a while so they will count against him. Trying to blame a coach for not coaching up players that have been in a program for an offseason is a bit unrealistic. Even then, Thompson has already had a higher QB rating, throwing for more yards, more TD and less INT then he did last year (although with 1 less game so far). So at the very least, he is improving in the new system. But the majority of the rest of the players around him were not CK recruits at any point.

In 2021, CK will have a hand picked QB in Lewis that enrolled in the program a semester early so he will have been here 2.5 years and another in Howard that was 1 of 5 QBs on the top of the board with a year of experience. So they will have experience in the system, even if not game experience, so I would not drop my expectations just because of a new starting QB. CK will be expected to win with his QB from the start. Not to be buried in the thread, but Howard's HS team is 12-1, a school record, and is playing for the District 1, 6A title this week as he threw for 3 TDs and ran for 2 more in their semi-final game. It's not the most competitive state for football though.

It's hard to make grand scheme changes in a offense to what CK wants to run until they have the personnel in place. For example, they really love H-Backs that can line up at FB, TE or RB. They don't have that on the team right now. They lost Harter in FB depth and are relying on a true freshman and a walkon. TEs on this team are more blockers then pass catchers, which is why Wheeler got a shot and now he is done for the season. They are attempting to run a power run scheme, with lineman that have been trained in zone blocking for their whole careers. One requires larger land movers, and the other has OL that are smaller that move in space.

But even then, if you haven't seen changes in the offense, you haven't been watching it much. Shotgun formations, diamond formations, pre-snap movement vs check downs every play, multiple RB sets, passing to TEs and FBs, etc are all areas in changes. Just because the offense isn't full blown spread offense for you to easily notice change, doesn't mean it isn't there. They are making as many changes as they can with the same personnel. You can't expect players recruited to one system to easily flip to another in an offseason. Next year, I would expect even more changes in the offense.

It's late in the year, a team that was razor thin in depth is getting beat up and it's taking a toll. The last staff left a lot of holes in the depth chart and it's showing now more then ever.

WR core lost Zuber, Rison and Harris before the season. Knowles is not 100% and Gill was taken out by a UT dirty hit. Brooks and Weber were (former?) walkons and are getting major minutes at WR against WVU
FB lost starter Harter before the season and is relying on a walkon and true freshman who burned his RS
TE lost a pass catching TE in Wheeler for the season. Logan Long, a walkon, caught a pass as a result of the lack of TEs
CB lost #1 Parker for WVU. Hayes, a transfer was denied a waiver and what's worse left football so he won't even play next year. Not sure he would have done much as a freshman though.
LB lost #1 LB Hughes before the season and reserve Gallon a few games ago. Had to burn Duke's RS this year as a result. They also just got Fletcher back after 1/2 the season
RB has a beat up Gilbert and Brown and Trotter was a former walkon in Trotter. Not to mention McCoy and Barnes that could be on the team
Backup QB is a walkon in Ast with Delton leaving and Holcombe deciding to leave

There are no excuses, but lack of depth is taking its toll. Hopefully there is less attribution after this year then there has been in the past and the program can build back up the depth so that in a year or so, they aren't having to play true freshman or walkons as much.
Last edited by AJcat7755 on November 18th, 2019, 4:13 pm, edited 6 times in total.

KITNooga
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Post by KITNooga » November 18th, 2019, 3:58 pm

pulitzerdave wrote:
November 18th, 2019, 3:05 pm
KC Star's grades from our horrible loss to West Virginia - which I agree with and are somewhat generous.

Offense - C+
Defense - C-
Special Teams - C
Coaching - D

Sometimes you just have to own it. No excuses or rolling out season stats to coverup a lack of discipline and passion for this football game.
boy, now I feel so much better!
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Post by learnin » November 18th, 2019, 9:37 pm

Before the season began, I would have been very happy with a 6-7 win season. We had a new coaching staff; we lost some good receivers and other players; and we didn't have a returning runner. The Oklahoma game changed a lot of that pessimism for me. I saw what this football team could do when it was focused. All year long, this personal foul thing has stuck in my craw. I can't remember seeing so many personal fouls from a K-State team, but I admit my memory could be faulty. Nevertheless, these personal fouls, and un-sportsman like calls, are concerning. These kind of penalties belong with the super talented teams who can afford some gloating and stupidity.

This should have been cleaned up after we had a rash of them early in the season. The one, during the first quarter against WV, cost them the game. I was so upset, when WV scored after that penalty, I nearly walked out of the stadium. There should have been a great chorus of boos after that, but I believe everyone, including the players, thought we'd end up walking over these Mountaineers. Evidently that was the case, because shortly thereafter, I believe we got another un-sportsman like penalty. This lack of discipline, no matter how depleted we are, or whether we have a new coaching staff that needs time to get their own players, is what bothers me.

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Post by pulitzerdave » November 19th, 2019, 3:20 pm

learnin wrote:
November 18th, 2019, 9:37 pm
Before the season began, I would have been very happy with a 6-7 win season. We had a new coaching staff; we lost some good receivers and other players; and we didn't have a returning runner. The Oklahoma game changed a lot of that pessimism for me. I saw what this football team could do when it was focused. All year long, this personal foul thing has stuck in my craw. I can't remember seeing so many personal fouls from a K-State team, but I admit my memory could be faulty. Nevertheless, these personal fouls, and un-sportsman like calls, are concerning. These kind of penalties belong with the super talented teams who can afford some gloating and stupidity.

This should have been cleaned up after we had a rash of them early in the season. The one, during the first quarter against WV, cost them the game. I was so upset, when WV scored after that penalty, I nearly walked out of the stadium. There should have been a great chorus of boos after that, but I believe everyone, including the players, thought we'd end up walking over these Mountaineers. Evidently that was the case, because shortly thereafter, I believe we got another un-sportsman like penalty. This lack of discipline, no matter how depleted we are, or whether we have a new coaching staff that needs time to get their own players, is what bothers me.
Learnin, I agree with you totally. It's not just the fact that there seems to be a rash of these, it's also WHEN they occur. There are those on this forum who are trying to justify, and even provide cover for them, but the fact is, they've cost us games, particularly the West Virginia loss.

Is this an attempt to forge a new "tough guy" culture? If so, then that's a big mistake. There's a difference between thuggery and aggressiveness. I'd rather see quiet confidence in a team rather than smack talk blather. I'd rather see discipline rather than ignorance and disorder.

We're not good enough to strut around, and certainly not good enough to dole out late hits, shoving after the whistle and getting into an opponents face. It's too expensive for a team with too many deficiencies. Bill Snyder is no longer KSU's football coach, and that's fine. But I hope his 16 goals for success are still somewhere on the locker room walls.

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Post by KITNooga » November 19th, 2019, 3:26 pm

pulitzerdave wrote:
November 18th, 2019, 3:05 pm
KC Star's grades from our horrible loss to West Virginia - which I agree with and are somewhat generous.

Offense - C+
Defense - C-
Special Teams - C
Coaching - D

Sometimes you just have to own it. No excuses or rolling out season stats to coverup a lack of discipline and passion for this football game.
what grade did they give Les Miles after the KSU game?
If you have to be persuaded, reminded, pressured, lied to, incentivized, coerced, bullied, socially shamed, guilt-tripped, threatened, punished and criminalized...you can be absolutely certain that what is being promoted is not in your best interest

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