wefald proposes b12/p12 alliance ...

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Re: wefald proposes b12/p12 alliance ...

Post by Opensource » March 2nd, 2019, 6:58 pm

I love K-State and Manhattan. But, people better start rallying around the school and look for ways to help. The reality is things are going from bad to worse. Enrollment is declining and budgets are being slashed.. Many of the best people didn't want to leave. But, at some point they had to ask themselves how they could stay when they can get 30% pay raises and much better support. The university has some committed people and great programs. But, it is not a top tier institution and does not compare with the Pac 12. Look at WSU for a comparable school and you will quickly see how we aren't even close to the Pac 12's bottom feeder. Just walk across these campuses. You can't image what Microsoft university (University of Washington), Nike University (University of Oregon), or any of the others are like. I am not even mentioning Stanford or Berkley. Good or bad they are in a different world. Gordon Gee is 75 and was President for a while of Colorado in the old Big 8 years. He is Wefald's old buddy from those years. So, take all this with a grain of salt. He was forced out of Ohio State.. We can only hope that they let more teams into the Power 5 world.

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Post by stlcatfan » March 2nd, 2019, 11:40 pm

Declining enrollments and slashing of budgets are a nationwide problem for a lot of large state universities (and smaller schools, too). I remember reading recently that 2018 marked the 6th year in a row of declining enrollment in our nation's colleges and universities.

Fewer kids are graduating from high school and more of them are opting not to go to a 4/5 year university, mainly due to high costs and concern about return on investment. More folks also appear to be looking at going to 2-year technical colleges as an alternative. I'll use my own son as a case-in-point. He is a junior in high school and currently looking at colleges. We always assumed he would go to a school like K-State and get a degree in a computer related field. He is really sharp with computers and technology.

Recently, however, his post-secondary interests have been going more toward technical school (rather than a 4-year college) and getting a degree in an IT related field (e.g., Network Systems Management Technology). In a technical college, it is much more "hands-on" which he likes and he can get certifications in Microsoft Servers and Cisco Networks after just 1-2 years and also earn an Associate's degree. He can stay on one more year and earn a bachelor of applied management degree. He will still have general education courses, but not as many as he would at a university. About the only traditional 4/5 year school he has expressed interest in is Missouri University of Science and Technology in Rolla. Of course, he could always transfer to a school like Rolla after graduating from a 2-year college.

The way he looks at it is he will get out in the real world sooner with practical, marketable skills, and less college debt. He can also avoid having to take a lot of classes that have nothing to do with his major. It seems like this is becoming a more common choice among young people today. What does this mean for the future of schools like K-State? They will have to adapt or continue to decline.
Last edited by stlcatfan on March 3rd, 2019, 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hilltopwildcat (March 3rd, 2019, 4:27 pm)

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Post by ToledoCat#2 » March 3rd, 2019, 9:51 am

I think you are spot on, stlcat. Families I know simply can't afford to send their kids to 4 year major university. Most go 2 years to CC and then hope for a way to finish up at KSU or similar university.

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Post by Opensource » March 3rd, 2019, 10:45 am

stlcatfan wrote:
March 2nd, 2019, 11:40 pm
Declining enrollments and slashing of budgets is a nationwide problem for a lot of large state universities (and smaller schools, too). I remember reading recently that 2018 marked the 6th year in a row of declining enrollment in our nation's colleges and universities.

Fewer kids are graduating from high school and more of them are opting not to go to a 4/5 year university, mainly due to high costs and concern about return on investment. More folks also appear to be looking at going to 2-year technical colleges as an alternative. I'll use my own son as a case-in-point. He is a junior in high school and currently looking at colleges. We always assumed he would go to a school like K-State and get a degree in a computer related field. He is really sharp with computers and technology.

Recently, however, his post-secondary interests have been going more toward technical school (rather than a 4-year college) and getting a degree in an IT related field (e.g., Network Systems Management Technology). In a technical college, it is much more "hands-on" which he likes and he can get certifications in Microsoft Servers and Cisco Networks after just 1-2 years and also earn an Associate's degree. He can stay on one more year and earn a bachelor of applied management degree. He will still have general education courses, but not as many as he would at a university. About the only traditional 4/5 year school he has expressed interest in is Missouri University of Science and Technology in Rolla. Of course, he could always transfer to a school like Rolla after graduating from a 2-year college.

The way he looks at it is he will get out in the real world sooner with practical, marketable skills, and less college debt. He can also avoid having to take a lot of classes that have nothing to do with his major. It seems like this is becoming a more common choice among young people today. What does this mean for the future of schools like K-State? They will have to adapt or continue to decline.
This is true. But, this is more about regional universities. This is not true about Power 5 universities, which are top comprehensive research universities. You can't get into the highly selective Pac 12 universities like Stanford or Berkley and UCLA (13% admission's rate) or University of Washington (50%) are still really hard to get into. Even Washington State admits about 70% of applicants. These schools don't let people walk in like K-State. In the Big 12, Texas admits about 30% of students with an average GPA out of high school of 3.7 and a very high ACT. So, declining enrollments and budget problems are really not happening in these economic expanding areas.

Community college is a good route as well as technical school. I am a big advocate for that. But, if he could be one of the 30% that gets through the College of Engineering's computer science program at K-State he would be in a different league. Others may know starting salaries. But, I am hearing 70,000.

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Post by stlcatfan » March 3rd, 2019, 10:49 am

ToledoCat#2 wrote:
March 3rd, 2019, 9:51 am
I think you are spot on, stlcat. Families I know simply can't afford to send their kids to 4 year major university. Most go 2 years to CC and then hope for a way to finish up at KSU or similar university.
Here in Missouri, we have what is called the A+ Scholarship Program, which if a student meets the qualifications, can get a huge amount of their tuition reimbursed. It is designed for students who attend 2-year community colleges and vocational/trade schools here in Missouri. So for many folks, especially like those you mentioned, that is an even bigger incentive to go the trade school route or even start at a community college before transferring on to a 4-year university.

Just this morning I came across an article that I thought put the whole issue into perspective. The article is written from a pro-trade school point of view, but it does make some legitimate points.

https://thebestschools.org/magazine/tra ... ge-degree/

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Post by stlcatfan » March 3rd, 2019, 11:15 am

Opensource wrote:
March 3rd, 2019, 10:45 am
stlcatfan wrote:
March 2nd, 2019, 11:40 pm
This is true. But, this is more about regional universities. This is not true about Power 5 universities, which are top comprehensive research universities. You can't get into the highly selective Pac 12 universities like Stanford or Berkley and UCLA (13% admission's rate) or University of Washington (50%) are still really hard to get into. Even Washington State admits about 70% of applicants. These schools don't let people walk in like K-State. In the Big 12, Texas admits about 30% of students with an average GPA out of high school of 3.7 and a very high ACT. So, declining enrollments and budget problems are really not happening in these economic expanding areas.

Community college is a good route as well as technical school. I am a big advocate for that. But, if he could be one of the 30% that gets through the College of Engineering's computer science program at K-State he would be in a different league. Others may know starting salaries. But, I am hearing 70,000.
Oh, I have definitely have been talking up K-State with him and hope to set up a school visit with K-State. But at this point, I don't see him going the engineering route. Who knows, though? Once he starts doing more college visits, he may change his mind.

Last fall, his high school had a huge college fair. There had a to be more than a hundred schools there, including K-State. I made sure that K-State's table was one we stopped by. But as we went from table to table, and my son talked about the major he was interested in, it all sounded the same. He politely listened and thanked them.

However, when we got to the Illinois Tech table, his whole countenance lit up when the guy talked about their programs. He and the guy at table were talking shop in technology, while I pretended to understand half of what they were discussing. The same thing happened at the Ranken Tech table. It really opened my eyes, and my son's, too, I think.

I know he likely won't make the same money as an IT specialist as he would as a computer engineer, but there is a huge shortage right now of skilled tech workers, and so after just 1-2 years of college, he can be out in the workforce earning a living wage, with the opportunity to continue his education later on, if he so desires.

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Post by Ksuminnesotacat » March 3rd, 2019, 11:42 am

The problem is very simple. When my Ac goes down I don't call an Econ major with a minor in social science to fix it. I call a guy that makes 85 bucks an hour that went to vo tech and can actually fix the ac. Berkeley and Stanford still can't provide that service so they pretty much are just about like everyone else in this regard.
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stlcatfan (March 3rd, 2019, 12:06 pm)

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Post by Opensource » March 3rd, 2019, 1:28 pm

Ksuminnesotacat wrote:
March 3rd, 2019, 11:42 am
The problem is very simple. When my Ac goes down I don't call an Econ major with a minor in social science to fix it. I call a guy that makes 85 bucks an hour that went to vo tech and can actually fix the ac. Berkeley and Stanford still can't provide that service so they pretty much are just about like everyone else in this regard.
Tech degrees are a great career choice. I don't know why K-State doesn't seem to market K-State Salina more. We need more of this. But, the English and social science major who graduates from Stanford or any top notch arts and sciences university does very well if making money is your goal. K-State unfortunately never invested in these fields and the across the board quality of the required education experience shows. Not that every major doesn't have people that take advantage of the opportunities that K-State provides.

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Pick 'Em

Post by tmcats » March 3rd, 2019, 1:39 pm

Between 1985 and 2011, average tuition nationwide increased 498 percent—more than four times the rate of general inflation (114 percent) as measured by the Consumer Price Index (CPI). Forbes
"There ain't anybody stoppin' our ass!" CK

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Post by Hypeman » March 3rd, 2019, 3:33 pm

Lots of good discussion. Tech degrees are a great choice and in huge demand. Of course almost every major is in demand with the exit of the baby boomers from the workforce, but technical areas have a particularly high shortage.

Tuition and “hidden fees” are driving many out of the college education market and schools in rural areas are having a difficult time with declining enrollment, KSU is no different. One difference between KSU and the schools in the PAC and the UTs of the world is they don’t have a problem getting enough students like KSU. They turn down way more than even apply at KSU. Thus trying to keep KSU tuition rates at a similar level is not possible (simple supply and demand). KSU is trying to keep pace with tuition and fee hikes while begging students to attend. That doesn’t work well. KSU is also ‘trying’ to up its research profile to hang with the big dogs, but that gets real costly, particularly in the social sciences where they don’t bring in research money.

I also think the cause of the increase in tuition cost is multifaceted but mainly a combo of overspending by college administrators and reduced public supprt (or perhaps more things competing for the public’s tax dollar).

That was a lot of rambling.

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