here we go again ...

The defending Big XII Champions
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Re: here we go again ...

Post by TexasCat » August 1st, 2021, 12:22 pm

K-State is not a national brand. Even in our best years, we were not. National perception is completely different. The perception of K-State at the national level is not good. I’m not even saying it’s bad. We just don’t move the needle at all either way. But, national perception is fleeting. If we packed AT&T and took Stanford to the woodshed, we would still not have a national brand, but our National perception would improve dramatically. Maybe our focus should be doing this if our goal is to get invited to another conference over the next 1-2 years. I think the K-State administration should be doing everything they can to get 80,000 K-Staters to Dallas in September. I would imagine that Chris Klieman is very aware of how important this game is to our future. Even if not from a national perspective, if we can impress the PAC 12, that would put us in a better position than where we are today.

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Post by graygrantham » August 1st, 2021, 1:53 pm

I have been absent from K State Discussion boards for about 7 or 8 years. In that time I was only able to make it to one K State Football Game, The 2013 Buffalo Wild wings Bowl in Sun Devil Stadium a 31 -14 win over Michigan.

I have seen posts from some who are disgruntled that the (Stanford) game isn't going to be in Manhattan, and I get that. A home game is far easier to attend and the game in Texas is beyond the financial and logistical reach of many. However, one thing that K State fans earned a certain amount of respect for among broadcasters (especially in the Phoenix area where I live) is the large amount of fans willing to travel for marquee games/bowl games. I remember one game in which Lou Holtz was one of the color commentators he said "Listen folks the population of Manhattan Kansas is 35,000 there are 45,000 K State fans in the stadium tonight, If I am a Bank Robber in Manhattan Kansas, TONIGHT's THE NIGHT".

Point being given the Big 12 is going to be the Big 8 in the not too distant future, it would be beneficial to K State for the entire College Football Universe to see 45,000 Purple Shirts in AT&T Stadium I have family members (8) from 4 different Sates, (Maryland, Florida, Texas and Arizona) making the trip not because of conference realignment (happened after tickets were bought) but because even though the Wildcats may not win, If they do beat Stanford it will be huge and to say I was there will be a lasting memory for all. My first K State game was when I was 12 in 1969 Barry Switzer and Steve Owens (Oklahoma) came to town, Lynn Dickey and company beat them 59-21. Steve Owens won the Hesiman Trophy that year.

Over the years K State developed a couple stat anomalies that were priceless, For a while K State was among teams with the most wins over a team with a Heisman Trophy winner, and included Steve Owens (69) Carson Palmer (02) Jason White (03) RGIII (11). Matt Leinert the 2004 Heisman Winner was on the same team with Carson Palmer when USC came to Manhattan but did not play in that game and didn't win the Heisman that year. Thanks to wild@nite for calling out that I missed Ricky Williams (98).

Another Stat anomally is that for most of the life of the Big 12 K State was the only team in college football to have a lifetime winning record against Texas. Texas currently leads the series 11 games to 10. K State would need to win 3 of the next 4 games to send Texas packing with K State being the only team in history to have a winning record against Texas (at least until Texas begins play in the SEC West).

On Conference Realignment. So Maybe K State doesn't get to play on the same stage as Oklahoma any more. So what? No sense crying over water under the bridge.

I personally would like to see a new conference alignment that would bring new destinations and new traditions. There are some great opportunities out there and since nobody knows how University Presidents and Boards of Regents will choose where they want to align in the future, rather than pick which teams I think would be great alignment choices for K State, I thought I would describe some of the fan benefits certain schools would bring to the Big8/12/16? If I was picking based upon the fan experience, Stadium capacity and peripheral fan experience opportunities here is my realignment wish list: #1 UCF: Orlando Florida, Disney World, Sunshine, #2 MEMPHIS: Music, Culture History, Graceland, #3 Colorado State (or Colorado or both) return to an annual trip to Denver/Rocky Mountains Big 8 nosatalgia, #4 HOUSTON: Its not Texas but you can see it from there. We get a bit of that with TCU in Fort Worth but not so much in Lubbock and Waco. #5 Cincinnati will make a good geographic match for Memphis and West Virginia. Cincinnati has many tourist (fan experience) attractions probably too numerous too mention here my personal favorite the Krohn Conservatory (Google it). #6 BYU located in Provo, if you are flying, you kind of have to go through Salt Lake City to get there, Salt Lake City has a lot to offer, even if you are not an LDS member visiting the Tabernacle in SLC is a once in a lifetime must see. If you are driving SLC is only 45 miles north of Provo. #8 ECU Greenville North Carolina. North Carolina is a big state with a lot of history, culture, ocean, beaches and FOOD. Any destination in NC would be awesome but ECU has a 50,000 seat stadium in 2019 they averaged around 33, 000 attendance against some fairly poor competition, In the Big8/12/16 there wouldn't be an empty seat. And lastly #9 UAB Birmingham Alabama. Why in the world would the Big 12 pick a school that killed off its football program in the past 5 years only to bring it back? Well first reaons it is in Alabama and perhaps the Big 12 playing in the Crimson Tide's backyard might have some benefit to all of college football but you can't recruit Alabama High school players if you don't go there, and there isn't a whole lot of reasons for kids in Alabama to join a Big 12 School, if Mom and Dad never get to see them play. Next UAB has new stadium opening this fall that seats 47,000

So in my opinion it really doesn't matter where the Big 12 adds schools, I don't think they can miss with any of these mentioned above, but for the next 4 years the Big 12 has something desireable that none of these schools mentioned have, which makes poaching Big 12 teams by the AAC or MWC a non starter if you kill off the big 12 in the next 4 years the two things the Big 12 has that these othere schools could greatly benefit from for at least the next 4 years is #1 A seat at the Power 5 Table. If the Big 12 goes away, the Power 5 become the Power 4, even if the AAC annexes all remaining 8 schools. #2 For the next 4 years any team joining the Big 12 will earn a Pro rata share of FOX/ESPN Media payouts of Which 10% will be paid (involuntarily) by the Universities of Texas and Oklahoma. The Big 12 By laws require 3/4 of current members voting in the affirmative to add new members meaning 8 votes are sufficient. (UT and OU votes are not needed for immeidate expansion) FOX and ESPN will not increase the media revenue more than probably $10 million for 2 additions. (Although 2 new members would add 18 football games to the broadcast inventory so that number could be higher) The remainder of the revenue share for new schools will be paid 10% by each of the existing 10 members. So If the Big 12 invites UCF and BYU and decides to pay them $20 million to start, OU and Texas will both be forced to take a $2 million per year revenue cut, as would all other members, but this might be a wise and quite frankly necessary step for conference survival. And who knows with 3 games against Tulane in the next 5 years maybe some Interest in making Tulane a member. Slight disadvantage with only 30,000 seats but membership in the Big8/12/16 could easily justify adding 20,000 and who wouldn't like to go see K State play in New Orleans. Its not the Sugar Bowl but you can see it from there,
Last edited by graygrantham on August 1st, 2021, 5:12 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by Wildcat7073 » August 1st, 2021, 2:24 pm

@ graygrantham -

I was a Senior at K-State and at the 59-21 beatdown of OU in 1969. It is a great memory. I think K-State's image problem is first it is in Kansas (the place everyone else sees as flyover country) and there can't be anything worth while there and second, it is "State" which somehow makes it second class. (unless you are THE Ohio State U) I mostly grew up near Memphis, TN and the school formerly known as Memphis State became just Memphis. Same school, different label and apparently a change in perception.

I don't think anything in the world will change the "national" perception. Even YouTube pundits will mention all the remaining big 12 schools and generally leave out K-State and Iowa State. That includes those with some affiliation with the Big12.

As I have said before, I will follow K-State no matter what happens with conference realignment. But I will have a lot less interest in college athletics nationally.

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Post by wild@nite » August 1st, 2021, 2:54 pm

Forgot Ricky Williams (98) on that Heisman list. 48-7 ass whooping.
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Post by stlcatfan » August 1st, 2021, 3:16 pm

Wildcat7073 wrote:
August 1st, 2021, 2:24 pm
@ graygrantham -

As I have said before, I will follow K-State no matter what happens with conference realignment. But I will have a lot less interest in college athletics nationally.
Same here. If the big wigs were smart, instead of trying to reduce the number of schools on the big stage, they should actually look to increase it. Keep the current 65 P5 schools and add the top G5 schools. I really feel schools like BYU, Boise State, Cincy, SMU, Houston, UCF, and Memphis belong on a bigger stage. This would increase rather than decrease fan interest, nationwide. More interest = better ratings = more money.

Maybe if we expand the Big 12, we can help bring that about. If we add four schools, they would likely come from the above group.

This current idea of concentrating all the best football schools into one or two conferences is just going to turn off the rest of the nation to college football. It already has!
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Post by PurpleWildcat » August 1st, 2021, 6:38 pm

I am guessing with the E$PN contract we would only be able to add two schools at this time. If we added four the other two would cost everyone even more of the payout from the contract. That’s the whole purpose of keeping the eight together because of the huge payouts. I wonder too if there is any legal issues with adding four schools, rather than two, that would affect the up coming lawsuit against E$PN.
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Post by PurpleWildcat » August 1st, 2021, 6:40 pm

graygrantham wrote:
August 1st, 2021, 1:53 pm
I have been absent from K State Discussion boards for about 7 or 8 years. In that time I was only able to make it to one K State Football Game, The 2013 Buffalo Wild wings Bowl in Sun Devil Stadium a 31 -14 win over Michigan.

I have seen posts from some who are disgruntled that the (Stanford) game isn't going to be in Manhattan, and I get that. A home game is far easier to attend and the game in Texas is beyond the financial and logistical reach of many. However, one thing that K State fans earned a certain amount of respect for among broadcasters (especially in the Phoenix area where I live) is the large amount of fans willing to travel for marquee games/bowl games. I remember one game in which Lou Holtz was one of the color commentators he said "Listen folks the population of Manhattan Kansas is 35,000 there are 45,000 K State fans in the stadium tonight, If I am a Bank Robber in Manhattan Kansas, TONIGHT's THE NIGHT".

Point being given the Big 12 is going to be the Big 8 in the not too distant future, it would be beneficial to K State for the entire College Football Universe to see 45,000 Purple Shirts in AT&T Stadium I have family members (8) from 4 different Sates, (Maryland, Florida, Texas and Arizona) making the trip not because of conference realignment (happened after tickets were bought) but because even though the Wildcats may not win, If they do beat Stanford it will be huge and to say I was there will be a lasting memory for all. My first K State game was when I was 12 in 1969 Barry Switzer and Steve Owens (Oklahoma) came to town, Lynn Dickey and company beat them 59-21. Steve Owens won the Hesiman Trophy that year.

Over the years K State developed a couple stat anomalies that were priceless, For a while K State was among teams with the most wins over a team with a Heisman Trophy winner, and included Steve Owens (69) Carson Palmer (02) Jason White (03) RGIII (11). Matt Leinert the 2004 Heisman Winner was on the same team with Carson Palmer when USC came to Manhattan but did not play in that game and didn't win the Heisman that year. Thanks to wild@nite for calling out that I missed Ricky Williams (98).

Another Stat anomally is that for most of the life of the Big 12 K State was the only team in college football to have a lifetime winning record against Texas. Texas currently leads the series 11 games to 10. K State would need to win 3 of the next 4 games to send Texas packing with K State being the only team in history to have a winning record against Texas (at least until Texas begins play in the SEC West).

On Conference Realignment. So Maybe K State doesn't get to play on the same stage as Oklahoma any more. So what? No sense crying over water under the bridge.

I personally would like to see a new conference alignment that would bring new destinations and new traditions. There are some great opportunities out there and since nobody knows how University Presidents and Boards of Regents will choose where they want to align in the future, rather than pick which teams I think would be great alignment choices for K State, I thought I would describe some of the fan benefits certain schools would bring to the Big8/12/16? If I was picking based upon the fan experience, Stadium capacity and peripheral fan experience opportunities here is my realignment wish list: #1 UCF: Orlando Florida, Disney World, Sunshine, #2 MEMPHIS: Music, Culture History, Graceland, #3 Colorado State (or Colorado or both) return to an annual trip to Denver/Rocky Mountains Big 8 nosatalgia, #4 HOUSTON: Its not Texas but you can see it from there. We get a bit of that with TCU in Fort Worth but not so much in Lubbock and Waco. #5 Cincinnati will make a good geographic match for Memphis and West Virginia. Cincinnati has many tourist (fan experience) attractions probably too numerous too mention here my personal favorite the Krohn Conservatory (Google it). #6 BYU located in Provo, if you are flying, you kind of have to go through Salt Lake City to get there, Salt Lake City has a lot to offer, even if you are not an LDS member visiting the Tabernacle in SLC is a once in a lifetime must see. If you are driving SLC is only 45 miles north of Provo. #8 ECU Greenville North Carolina. North Carolina is a big state with a lot of history, culture, ocean, beaches and FOOD. Any destination in NC would be awesome but ECU has a 50,000 seat stadium in 2019 they averaged around 33, 000 attendance against some fairly poor competition, In the Big8/12/16 there wouldn't be an empty seat. And lastly #9 UAB Birmingham Alabama. Why in the world would the Big 12 pick a school that killed off its football program in the past 5 years only to bring it back? Well first reaons it is in Alabama and perhaps the Big 12 playing in the Crimson Tide's backyard might have some benefit to all of college football but you can't recruit Alabama High school players if you don't go there, and there isn't a whole lot of reasons for kids in Alabama to join a Big 12 School, if Mom and Dad never get to see them play. Next UAB has new stadium opening this fall that seats 47,000

So in my opinion it really doesn't matter where the Big 12 adds schools, I don't think they can miss with any of these mentioned above, but for the next 4 years the Big 12 has something desireable that none of these schools mentioned have, which makes poaching Big 12 teams by the AAC or MWC a non starter if you kill off the big 12 in the next 4 years the two things the Big 12 has that these othere schools could greatly benefit from for at least the next 4 years is #1 A seat at the Power 5 Table. If the Big 12 goes away, the Power 5 become the Power 4, even if the AAC annexes all remaining 8 schools. #2 For the next 4 years any team joining the Big 12 will earn a Pro rata share of FOX/ESPN Media payouts of Which 10% will be paid (involuntarily) by the Universities of Texas and Oklahoma. The Big 12 By laws require 3/4 of current members voting in the affirmative to add new members meaning 8 votes are sufficient. (UT and OU votes are not needed for immeidate expansion) FOX and ESPN will not increase the media revenue more than probably $10 million for 2 additions. (Although 2 new members would add 18 football games to the broadcast inventory so that number could be higher) The remainder of the revenue share for new schools will be paid 10% by each of the existing 10 members. So If the Big 12 invites UCF and BYU and decides to pay them $20 million to start, OU and Texas will both be forced to take a $2 million per year revenue cut, as would all other members, but this might be a wise and quite frankly necessary step for conference survival. And who knows with 3 games against Tulane in the next 5 years maybe some Interest in making Tulane a member. Slight disadvantage with only 30,000 seats but membership in the Big8/12/16 could easily justify adding 20,000 and who wouldn't like to go see K State play in New Orleans. Its not the Sugar Bowl but you can see it from there,
Excellent first time post!

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Post by tmcats » August 1st, 2021, 7:33 pm

stlcatfan wrote:
July 31st, 2021, 4:14 pm
tmcats wrote:
July 31st, 2021, 1:59 pm


correct.
While that it is true, unless I missed someone, we were still third most valuable in the Big 12, after UT and OU. Hopefully, we can use this to our advantage when we market ourselves to other conferences, if the Big 12 dissolves.
that value is largely based on cash flowing into the program from the b12 grant of rights agreements. the amount that is reduced with ou and texas leaving will materially impact k-state's value which is also based on profits, debt, risk, management, facilities, affiliations, and the like. putting it simply, k-state's financial value equals the amount someone would pay for it based on its annual return. the higher the annual return, the lower the discount rate, the higher value.
Why is there something rather than nothing?

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Post by bigpurpleman » August 1st, 2021, 9:02 pm

[https://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sport ... 413254001/]

This is an interesting take. A lot of fantasy, but interesting.
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Post by stlcatfan » August 1st, 2021, 9:25 pm

bigpurpleman wrote:
August 1st, 2021, 9:02 pm
[https://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sport ... 413254001/]

This is an interesting take. A lot of fantasy, but interesting.
Thanks for sharing the article. Points 1 and 2 looked pretty reasonable, but #3, putting Penn State and Northwestern in the same group as the CA schools, would never fly, IMO.

For those who wonder if we would be a poor cultural fit in the Pac, I think as it is currently configured we would be. But you take out the four CA schools and say Oregon and Washington, or maybe CU, then a lot of the ultra liberal schools would be gone to the Big Ten and the ones left (especially the Land Grant schools) would be more culturally aligned with us. Plus, we would most likely be coming with a group of other Big 12 schools. So we wouldn't be all that poor of fit, in the end.

Our chances of ever getting into the Pac-12 may hinge on what those 4-6 West Coast schools end up doing... unless they want to stay together and add four Big 12 schools to get to 16. But it is probably not very likely. We'll see, I guess.
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